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Thread: Contact vs. Digital print AND scanners for large format...

  1. #61

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    Re: Contact vs. Digital print AND scanners for large format...

    Yeah no surprise that contact prints and wet prints in general are vastly superior to digital inkjet prints, though not as good as the original negative. this is exactly what the equations tell us. however, from a distance the inkjet prints look just as good as the contact prints.

    better than a contact print is simply to use the original slide. it's fun shooting Velvia and B&W slide film. they are even more amazing when backlit.

  2. #62

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    Re: Contact vs. Digital print AND scanners for large format...

    A bit of context on this.

    Assuming we are talking about digital prints from inkjet printers, it is generally assumed that there is little if any gain in sharpness to be obtained in printing with files of more than 360 ppi. Perhaps some of the newer printers are able to do slightly better than this, but if so it is not by much. If you convert 360 dpi to resolution in lp/mm it turns out to be just over 7 lp/mm. Prints from inkjet printers look sharp because 7 lp/mm is beyond the threshold of human vision for most persons. My own vision is only about 5 lp/mm. Also, many digital files have some form of sharpening applied that increases apparent sharpness, though not real resolution.

    Contact prints from in-camera negatives have the potential to carry much more detail. Virtually all glossy silver gelatin papers are capable of resolution of at least 30+ lp/mm, and some appear capable of 50+ lp/mm. The smaller figure is quite easy to verify. Just contact print a high resolution chrome on glass target and read the results. I have never found a glossy silver paper that would not give at least 30 lp/mm with this test.

    Since LF negatives are easily capable of 40-60 lp/mm, a contact print from such a negative on silver paper has the potential for at least 4X the detail in an inkjet print, and perhaps as much as 7X. It may or may not *look* as sharp as an inkjet print (though that can be improved with unsharp masking) but the detail is definitely greater.

    If we enlarge the LF negative the resolution advantage of silver papers quickly disappears. Assuming the original negative is a 4X5 with the equivalent of 40 lp/mm of resolution, an enlargement will have 20 lp/mm at 8X10, 10 lp/mm at 16X20, and 5 lp/mm at 32X40. So in this specific case a print from an inkjet printer is capable of as much resolution as an enlargement in any size beyond 16X20, assuming that the negative was scanned with a high end scanner capable of capturing all of the resolution.

    When I first started scanning my 5X7 negatives and making digital negatives for printing on AZO and alternative processes I was pretty shocked to find that the resulting contact prints had much greater apparent sharpness than a straight enlargement on silver gelatin paper, if the magnification was 3X or more. Now it is pretty easy to see why.

    Sandy Kinig
    Last edited by sanking; 29-Feb-2008 at 11:40.

  3. #63
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    Re: Contact vs. Digital print AND scanners for large format...

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    A bit of context on this.



    When I first started scanning my 5X7 negatives and making digital negatives for printing on AZO and alternative processes I was pretty shocked to find that the resulting contact prints had much greater apparent sharpness than straight enlargement, if the magnification was 3X or more. Now it is pretty easy to see why.

    Sandy Kinig
    Sandy, I hope this is not a redundant question... To obtain the results you mention, what scanning process are you using with your 5X7 negatives?

    Thanks.

  4. #64

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    Re: Contact vs. Digital print AND scanners for large format...

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveHicks View Post
    Sandy, I hope this is not a redundant question... To obtain the results you mention, what scanning process are you using with your 5X7 negatives?

    Thanks.

    Steve,


    My working procedure at this time is to proof all of my 5X7 negatives from a recent shoot on the Epson 4990, then make digital contact print proofs in Photoshop to evaluate the image. Anything that I plan to print I will then scan on the Creo EverSmart Pro at 2540 spi. I then do all tonal corrections that are necessary, dust busting, etc. on the original file, and when it is completed I archive it.

    I am not one of those persons who insists that you have to scan everything with a drum scanner or high end flatbed. For much of my work with 5X7 negatives, which I generally do not enlarge more than 3X - 4X, the results from the Epson 4990 are virtually as good as those you could get from a drum scanner or high end flatbed. However, the effective resolution is only about 45% of stated, whereas the effective resolution of the EverSmart is about 95% of stated. This has advantages for file size in that a scan on the EverSmart at 1200 spi has as much effective resolution as one on the Epson at 2400 spi. But excellent results are possible with LF negative film and Epson scanners like the 4990, V700 and V750, so long as the final magnification is not over about 3X.


    Sandy King

  5. #65
    SteveHicks's Avatar
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    Re: Contact vs. Digital print AND scanners for large format...

    Thanks, Sandy. I appreciate that.

  6. #66

    Re: Contact vs. Digital print AND scanners for large format...

    I recently made a 4X5 inch digital black and white print to compare to a contact print of the same image my Lab had made. It is hard for me to see any differences between the two. If your goal, like mine, is to make 11 by 14 inch prints or smaller, frame them, and put them on your wall for display it will be real hard to see any differences between them and analogue prints. Of course larger cameras translate to larger print sizes. In fact my 11 by 14 inch digital prints, using an ordinary Epson 4990 scanner and an Epson 1800 printer are getting closer and closer to the 11 by 14 inch prints my Lab is making and this is an analogue, black and white only lab. Lately I have been taking 11 by 14 inch digital prints to them as proof prints, the last time I did this the printer said "I don't think you need me anymore." A nice compliment indeed! Here are some of the differences I see in the two types of prints when looking side by side in frames and on the wall. The analogue prints are overall sharper. With the digital prints I am able to alter exposure, contrast, etc. to smaller parts of the scene without affecting adjacent areas which my lab just can't do. This gave one of my digital prints less distracting highlights in some areas in between tree branches where the sky light was a little too bright. However, in favor of the analogue prints some of my digital prints have tints that can be hard to control and in fact I sometimes give up on some of them and have only analogue prints made of those images. I guess what I am suggesting is that for me, I found a system which involves using both analogue and digital processes to reach my particular, artistic goals.

  7. #67

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    Thumbs up Re: Contact vs. Digital print AND scanners for large format...

    Quote Originally Posted by john borrelli View Post
    I recently made a 4X5 inch digital black and white print to compare to a contact print of the same image my Lab had made. It is hard for me to see any differences between the two. If your goal, like mine, is to make 11 by 14 inch prints or smaller, frame them, and put them on your wall for display it will be real hard to see any differences between them and analogue prints. Of course larger cameras translate to larger print sizes. In fact my 11 by 14 inch digital prints, using an ordinary Epson 4990 scanner and an Epson 1800 printer are getting closer and closer to the 11 by 14 inch prints my Lab is making and this is an analogue, black and white only lab. Lately I have been taking 11 by 14 inch digital prints to them as proof prints, the last time I did this the printer said "I don't think you need me anymore." A nice compliment indeed! Here are some of the differences I see in the two types of prints when looking side by side in frames and on the wall. The analogue prints are overall sharper. With the digital prints I am able to alter exposure, contrast, etc. to smaller parts of the scene without affecting adjacent areas which my lab just can't do. This gave one of my digital prints less distracting highlights in some areas in between tree branches where the sky light was a little too bright. However, in favor of the analogue prints some of my digital prints have tints that can be hard to control and in fact I sometimes give up on some of them and have only analogue prints made of those images. I guess what I am suggesting is that for me, I found a system which involves using both analogue and digital processes to reach my particular, artistic goals.

    I didn't know labs still did contact printing the traditional way. How much does this service cost?

  8. #68

    Re: Contact vs. Digital print AND scanners for large format...

    Thanks to Sandy for putting the math behind the old saying "nothing compares to a 8 x 10 contact print."

  9. #69

    Re: Contact vs. Digital print AND scanners for large format...

    Hi Audioexcels, I go to the Image Inn here in Massachusetts, I am not associated with them in any way financially, I have been going to them for about five years. They are a traditional black and white lab. They do contact printing and they will contact print a 4x5 inch negative for two or three dollars. Some nice things about their contact prints include the nice paper they use and that you receive a 4x5 inch print back, as opposed to two 4x5 inch prints on a thinner weight 8 x 11 inch paper. Some of their contact prints have gone right into little frames because they looked so nice.I believe they have a web site.

  10. #70

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    Thumbs up Re: Contact vs. Digital print AND scanners for large format...

    Quote Originally Posted by john borrelli View Post
    Hi Audioexcels, I go to the Image Inn here in Massachusetts, I am not associated with them in any way financially, I have been going to them for about five years. They are a traditional black and white lab. They do contact printing and they will contact print a 4x5 inch negative for two or three dollars. Some nice things about their contact prints include the nice paper they use and that you receive a 4x5 inch print back, as opposed to two 4x5 inch prints on a thinner weight 8 x 11 inch paper. Some of their contact prints have gone right into little frames because they looked so nice.I believe they have a web site.
    Thanks John for your input. I only wonder if a higher end scanner bridges the gap furthermore to what you enjoy better with an analog vs. digital print. This may be a tough task to muster up, but here's what I would love to see done:

    1) I am assuming you know and use the better papers for inkjet printing. Take some papers that this lab does not use, and would be considered the equivalent of the paper/s that you use to do digital prints, and have them use these papers to make the prints with. Or, take over what is considered to be perhaps a pricey, but also best type of paper that can be used for digital printing for the contact look and likewise, the best type of paper that can be used for analog prints. I believe AZO is still around and many felt it was up there as the distinguished "best" for contact prints. Find something like an AZO that your labl obviously would lose money on if they used it for doing the contact prints since the sheet itself is say $5-$10 for a 4X5 sheet. I have to paper research as I have no idea what these papers for digital and contact printing cost, the ones for digital that are supposed to give the look of the contact print and the best analog stuff available today.

    2) Take the contact prints and try to replicate them using some sort of paper that is supposed to look like a contact print (see above) or some paper that seems to be what the machine wants to print onto to make those nice analog prints more indistinguishable to the digital prints. You have probably tried this already, but it would be an interesting thing to do IMHO, because now you are playing with different papers through the digital output and can adjust this/that/etc. as you do digitally, but can also find out what it is you need to do in order to replicate that analog print. Maybe it is possible? Maybe it is not. But if it is possible, you can indeed no longer use the printer locally and use that extra money to buy the future papers that will come out made specifically for those interested in getting the look of the contact print through a digital process.


    I know it's quite a tough one to handle, but if you really want to play around and experiment with it all to see just how much you can do on your own to just how much the lab could be doing if they were using different papers than they do, and likewise, you using different papers, along with doing all you can in learning about what papers along with what photoshop and printer necessities is required to get the same analog look.

    Sorry for the long one here, but I think this would be a very satisfying exercise. It would take some time, obviously, but you would be dealing with the best papers for both digital and analog paths, and have the opportunity to see not only if you can replicate and make a similarly good analog print as what you have been used to seeing from your lab, but you may actually see that the lab using such and such a paper is incredible and far superior to anything you can do digitally, while at the same time, you may find that even with these best papers for analog, you may find that the best papers for digital are able to not only replicate/look as good, but be far superior than what the analog ones look like.

    Thanks and hopefully you or someone will do an experiment like this. I think it's very interesting because if you did find a paper that really did it for you (that you gave to the lab), it could open up how you look at the traditional path more. At the same time, if you do the digital path with better papers and learn that you can replicate or make better prints than those the lab did with the best papers you give to them, you can surely know the best path to go, though the blown out highlights thing, if corrected in the darkroom or simply digitally is pretty mute for having it contact printed!

    Cheers and enjoy the shooting and hopefully some exercising of different papers for the lab and yourself to use!

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