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Thread: Purchase drum Scanner or pay for scans

  1. #11

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    Re: Purchase drum Scanner or pay for scans

    I recommend that you avoid the drum scanner and concentrate on your photography skills at this time.

    A good consumer scanner like the Epson V750 is easy to use and will give very good results up to about 4X. Maybe more if you look at the prints from a distance. Or, consider a used high-end flatbed or Imacon. I considered the drum scanner route but eventually decided that a high-end flatbed would better suit my interests so I settled on a Scitex EverSmart Pro. I am very glad that I did because its use is not all that different from the Epson consumer scanners. For LF film the high-end flatbeds are as good or better than the Imacon.

    If you are working a lot with transparency materials in color the drum scanner path might be the best route.

    Sandy King

  2. #12

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    Re: Purchase drum Scanner or pay for scans

    If you're brand new to this, and plan to make a living selling fine art photographs (or even if you only hope to sell enough prints to pay for your equipment, travel, marketing, etc. costs while keeping your day job) I think you have a long road to travel and whether or not to buy a drum scanner should be among the least of your conerns at this point.
    Brian Ellis
    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you do criticize them you'll be
    a mile away and you'll have their shoes.

  3. #13
    Jeff Deaton
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    Re: Purchase drum Scanner or pay for scans

    Don't forget that there is a certain "freedom" to be experienced when you have the ability to scan images yourself on you're own scanner. I've previously outsourced scanning to labs in the past with mostly great results, however, late last year it became obvious to me that I should be doing this myself. So I purchased a used Howtek 4500 along with accessories and jumped in with both feet...after looking. I did do the math as others have suggested to make sure that it would pay for itself over a reasonable amount of time. Purchasing a drum scanner was an expensive, but one of the best decisions I've made. I felt like I very much needed control over the digital output I was getting from my slides. Probably because I'm a perfectionist to a certain extent...ugh.

    Yup. There's learning how to wet mount, understanding the scanning software, color calibration, apertures, grain, resolutions, dpi, etc. There is a learning curve when operating a drum scanner, but don't let people scare you off. Trust me, it's really not that hard, but it will take multiple runs of the scanner with the same piece of film before you get your bearings - it's similar to learning how to operate an LF camera for the first time, and it does take some patience. Practice does make perfect and it's a learned skill.

    For me, the several thousand dollar entry price was well worth the freedom to scan whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted, and has ultimately put me more in control of the images I create. I've got control of almost the entire process from shutter click to just prior to printing (still have a lab do that...of course). And it's a good feeling to be able to load up a batch of 4x5's in the evening and let the scanner chug away all night.

    Yes, things should make financial sense and you need to make sure that you're spending your time appropriately. With any significant scanner there will be an investment in both money for equipment/software and in time learning how to operating the thing. However, after you and your scanner get to know each other, you won't be spending a lot of time actually "operating" a drum scanner. You will probably be spending more time in front of the computer getting your images ready for the printer because you will have that many more images in the queue for your digital workflow. I've found that there are a good deal more slides that I "wanted" to scan after I started doing my own drum scanning. Not indiscriminate scanning for sure, but those shots that may have been "on the fence" when viewed on the light table can suddenly become potential scanner candidates. ...just watch out for that.

    Ultimately, don't over analyze the operating and learning curve aspects of getting a drum scanner. If it's important for you to have your hands in the cookie jar in all aspects of image creation then you'll be getting a scanner...sooner or later.

    -Jeff

  4. #14

    Re: Purchase drum Scanner or pay for scans

    Thanks for all the great advice everyone. I'll leave the drum scanning for other for the time being as I still have a lot to learn. I'll keep Jeff's ideas in mind as I continue the process.


    Well, so much for staying up late burning the midnight Kami fluid.

    I appreciate the help and best of luck to everyone!

  5. #15

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    Re: Purchase drum Scanner or pay for scans

    Epson sells refurb 4990s on its website for $279. I'm happy with 4990 scans for about a 3X enlargement. Get some experience printing 11x14s then decide if you want to scan yourself or pay for scans.

    Good luck!

  6. #16
    Resident Heretic Bruce Watson's Avatar
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    Re: Purchase drum Scanner or pay for scans

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Jeffery View Post
    ...owning and operating a drum scanner is no simple undertaking, but it's doable, so is it a good investment?
    Depends on how many scans you need during a year and how much they cost to outsource. That math is pretty simple.

    But it's not solely about money. It's also about control. No one can scan your film as you would, and no one is going to put the effort into it that you would.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Jeffery View Post
    My goal is to become a fine art landscape photographer and sell enough prints to keep me in the canyons with a camera??? I have no idea what the most popular print sizes that sell are and I may be heading over the top quality wise when it's not necessary.
    Print sizes and quality levels depend on your market. Whether you can sell enough prints at sufficient prices to pay for your prints, your film, your equipment, and your travel expenses, not to mention your time is an interesting question. It's safe to say that the answer is almost always "no" however -- there's a ton of people who have tried and failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Jeffery View Post
    1. Some people in this list have commented that it's better just to continue to shoot, and just pay for drum scans? Is there an optimal archival 16 bit file size for 4x5 scans?
    Making art with an LF camera certainly contains a raft of learning curves. Most of which are conquered by making lots of photographs and learning from doing. It may well make sense to first concentrate on the LF photography learning curves and worry about scanning learning curves later. Or it may not. It's not something we can really answer for you.

    As to file size, it depends on the workflow you decide on. If you do your own drum scanning, you can opt for the scan-once-use-many approach. If you are sending your files out for drum scans, this may not be practical. IOW, file size depends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Jeffery View Post
    2. A number of people seem to use the Epson scanners for a lot of work and have drum scans made when needed.
    This is a common workflow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Jeffery View Post
    If I sink $1,000 into an Epson and mounting kit and then pay $$$ for drums scans it seems like a used drum scanner may pay for itself in a few years? The M1 is due but I'm assuming that it will be in the same quality range as the Epson's given the price point. Some have given up on the Epsons completely.
    It depends on what you want. If you are making big prints, you may find that you do a lot of drum scans. If you are making smaller prints, you may find that you don't do many drum scans.

    As to a used drum scanner paying for itself in a few years, the math is simple. Do the math.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Jeffery View Post
    3. A number of very experienced people on this list use the Eversmart flatbeds and not drum scanners? I'm guessing this is because the Eversmart's quality and ease of use will handle the majority of the scanning needs and there may only be a few instances where drum scans are needed beyond the capability of the Eversmarts?
    That seems a fair assesment. But a used professional flat bed scanner will typically run you considerably more than a used drum scanner. More math.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Jeffery View Post
    4. WCI, Calypso, etc. use the Tango scanners but I have heard the the smaller apertures of the Azteks and the ICG's provide better resolution. Many people think the Tango scans are all one needs but some people think that the finer resolution of the smaller apertures is apparent, and better?
    I'm one of those who is not a fan of the Tango scanners for large fine art work. Not that Tangos are bad - they are excellent for their designed purpose which appears to be magazine and advertising work, almost solely trannies. If you are going to be making prints bigger than US Tabloid size and in particular if you are going to be scanning negative films (color or B&W) then I think there is certainly better drum scanner hardware/software out there for that purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Jeffery View Post
    5. A used Howtek/ Aztek scanner seems to be a logical choice if a used drum scanner is eventually chosen and it seems like having the capability to scan in 16 bit mode is needed. Is there a need to scan above 4000 dpi?
    This is a religious issue. In my view there are basically three "camps" on this. One thinks you should scan at the highest scanner resolution available and downsample to print size which should reduce scanner induced noise. One thinks you can use scanner resolutions up to around the average grain size for the film you are using before the laws of diminishing returns make higher scanner resolutions of questionable value. One thinks you should scan at scanner resolutions considerably below average film grain size so as to avoid grain noise while picking up all the available image information.

    I used to think the different philosophies were just that - philosophies. Now I'm beginning to think that a lot depends on the specific hardware and software you are using. They are not all the same and they give different results. What I'm saying is, your own philosophy will likely be guided in part by your scanner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Jeffery View Post
    I'm sure the variety of opinions and answers recieved will not point to one specific solution, as the people on these lists have not gravitated to one, but it will help me understand the options a lot better. I will have to keep my investment in a scanner and all accessories to under $7000 as a cut off.
    Easily done, unless you buy a refurbed scanner directly from Aztek which can be pricey.

    The used market is definitely influenced by Aztek, ICG, and Screen, the last three players standing. Since you can still buy new parts and get factory service for these three, their used scanners tend to command a considerably higher price. If you are willing to service the scanner yourself, the Optronics ColorGetters and the ScanMates are quite good machines that you can get fairly cheaply. People that go this route often by another machine to use for parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Jeffery View Post
    I'd like to hear what works for you, what prints sizes and quality seem to work and what you would do if you were just starting out as I am now.
    You asked. What I'm doing is scanning 5x4 Tri-X, 160PortraVC, and 400PortraNC. I typically scan to 11-12x enlargement, 16 bit, with an output resolution of 300 ppi. This makes for files in the range of 1.1GB (color) and 360MB (B&W). I've made a number of large prints, the biggest of which is 150 x 93 cm. The print is "nose sharp" with just a hint of grain in the clouds.

    If I were you, just starting out, I'd spend a couple of years and a thousand+ sheets of film making photographs. Get well past the point where you don't notice the groundglass being upside down and backwards. Study all the art you can find (including painting, sculpture, architecture, etc.). Work on developing 1) technical competence and 2) your own vision and style. If you get to the point where you want to drum scan your film, revisit this question.

    There are some things you didn't ask about, so here's some more "information" that may be useful: drum scanners are really big. The "desktop" scanners take up the entire desktop and more. They are heavy - mine weighs 100Kg. They generate lots of heat - mine runs at 900W. They tend to be noisy as it takes lots of fans to dissipate the heat. And, they are slow. It's a lot faster to scan film a line-at-a-time than it is to scan it a pixel-at-a-time.

    OTOH, there is no higher quality scan than that from a drum scanner. This is true for any film, not just tranny film. Fluid mounting film onto a curved drum is magic -- it holds the film in the exact plane of optimum focus, corner to corner, and the scanning fluid fills in all the imperfections of the film, the drum, and the overlay. A "dry" scan is like an image on very fine sandpaper, while a fluid scan is like an image on fine crystal.

    Then, there's the joy of doing your own work. No one, no matter how skilled, can scan your film exactly the way you want it, but you. No one. You'll develop more depth with your own work than any scanning house can possibly offer. I've gotten to the point where every once in a while (not often, but it does happen occasionally) I can generate an image file that needs no corrections beyond cropping and dust spotting. And I'm not scanning trannies here - this is from negative film.

    And if you scan your own work, you'll learn how to optimize your exposure and processing to fit with what your scanner/software wants. This in particular with B&W film.

    But what's it worth to you? You are the only one that can decide that.

    Anyway, good luck with it. I hope you make good. And this is a fine place to come and ask questions. Lots of nice and generous LF folks here; QT has created an excellent LF resource.

    Bruce Watson

  7. #17

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    Re: Purchase drum Scanner or pay for scans

    I want to echo Bruce's recommendation that you shoot a 1000 sheets or so before you worry about this. Before you worry about the drum scans or flat bed, or even wet mounting on a flat bed, make sure your images need the ultimate resolution. Having tack sharp blades of grass is only important if you end up taking pictures that depend on tack sharp grass. If you do long exposures of waves, and pay attention to your exposures, drum scanning is not going to help a bit. The people you sell images to will probably not care a whit about the extra snap you might get with a drum scan - think what a small % of successful photographers do images that depend on ultimate sharpness.

  8. #18

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    Re: Purchase drum Scanner or pay for scans

    Dave,

    If you want a drum scanner I have one for $1.00 just pay the shipping on it and its yours complete with Mac G3 computer and two scanning drums. It weights 200 Ib's and must be shipped freight. It powers up and works as far as I know, When I brought it off ebay I paid $2300.00 it is a Optictronic's Go-getter model 4000 dpi optical. I have never used it as I have no electrical or mechanical skills.

    David

  9. #19

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    Re: Purchase drum Scanner or pay for scans

    My email address is dblank55@gmail.com

    david

  10. #20
    Ted Harris's Avatar
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    Re: Purchase drum Scanner or pay for scans

    While Bruce and I may disagree on some specifics we generally agree and we sure agree that you should shot some film, lots of film before you start making decisions on what scanner to buy. You also might want to consider one of the consumer scanners as a starter jsut to see if the world of scanningis for you. It is yet another discipline you need to master and one that will be a lot more easily masterd once you have come closer to mastering the actual taking side of the equation.

    One more point, I can't stress enough Bruce's earlier statement about how you scan being highly dependent on the hardware and software you are using. Like Bruce, I am very much convince that the quality of the final output has an awful lot to do wtih the software and the skill of the operator in using that software. As you have read in other posts on this Forum, we are talking about very sophisticated software that can have a fairly steep learning curve if you are to mast all of the features. Make sure you want to do it.

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