480mm f9.4 Schneider SYMMAR S or Nikkor 450M?

[SAShruby]

Well,

I did some search for threads about this lens, there is not too much info.

I am looking into 8x20 lens as everybody knows (see WTB Nikkor 450M) thread.
I see popping up on *bay 480mm f9.4 Schneider SYMMAR S quite a lot.

Similar lens I consider are:

Fuji Fujinon CM W 450
Nikon Nikkor M 450

Rodenstock APO Sironar N 480
Schneider APO Artar 480
Schneider APO Symmar 480
Schneider Symmar S 480

There is lot of info for Nikkor.
But,can you tell me difference between Symmar and APO Symmar?
What is the difference between Nikkor and those two?
Why everybody is singing about Nikkor and nobody about those two?
Is there any bigger limitation to movements vs Nikkor because they are more robust?

Off topic:
if anybody has an old (lettering inside) Fuji Fujinon CM W 450, I might consider buying it as well.

Cheers,

[Ted Harris]

Peter,

I don't have the stats handy but IIRC the Nikkor 450M has the largest image circle of the lenses you are looking at. I have owned the 480 Apo Artar and traded it for the 450M because my Apo Artar was unacceptably soft ... could have just been my particular lens but it was a very late Schneider serial number whe their QC was well under control. I find the 450M a much better performer.

[Oren Grad]

The 480 Symmar-S is HUGE compared to the 450 Nikkor-M. If you're considering it seriously, make sure that both you and your camera's front standard are up to carrying it. I'm also not sure whether it will cover 8x20. By specification it should fall a bit short, and I don't know whether the limit specified by Schneider is purely a matter of image quality or whether the mount mechanically vignettes beyond that point.

[SAShruby]

You see,

Nikkor has defined image circle 440mm at f22. I know it is compact therefore if you stop it more down you would get bigger image circle. The construction of the lens (front and rear glass is closer than Scheiders ones allow you to obtain bigger image circle).

Dorf easily handles heavy glass like Schneider 210SA in my case, which is I believe the most heaviest modern lens.

Oren, that is exactly the question, Does someone uses Schneider 480's for 8x20 with movements?

Thanks.

[naturephoto1]

Hi Peter,

The Nikon M450 mm lens is a Tessar Design- 4 elements in 3 groups.

The Schneider 480mm Apo Artar, Rodenstock 480mm Apo Ronar, and Fuji 450mm C lenses are all Dialyte Design- 4 elements in 4 Groups. The Schneider is single coated at best as far as I know; the Rodenstocks are available as I recall earlier as single coated and later as multicoated; the Fuji 450mm C is multicoated. The Fuji 450C is in a Copal 1 shutter while the Schneider Apo Artar 480mm and the Rodenstock 480mm lenses are in Copal 3 shutters.

The Rodenstock Sironar N and Sironar S 480mm lenses and the Schneider Symmar S, Apo Symmar, and Apo Symmar L 480mm lenses are Plasmats- 6 elements in 4 groups. These lenses are all quite large and fit into a Copal 3 shutter. The Sironar S is the more advanced of the 2 Rodenstock lenses with ED glass. The Schneider Apo Symmar lenses are newer than the Symmar S lenses, and the Apo Symmar L lenses are the most current with improved designs and more environmental friendly glasses.

The Fuji f8 450mm CMW has 6 elements in 6 groups, is multicoated, fits into a Copal 3 shutter and is also quite large.

Rich

[SAShruby]

Thanks NP1,

that explains why Scheiders are more robust. More glass = More space = More far from the center of the shutter = smaller image circle if you stop down.

Now the question is, is it worthed to buy them or not?

[Ole Tjugen]

For some strange reason Schneider didn't state image circles larger than 500mm. Sinthe the Symmar-S is a Plasmat, it should cover 70 degrees, making the image circle (quick mental calculation here) at least 640mm. That's plenty for 8x20.

If there's a shutter that can take it, I would believe it's a Compound #5 or possibly a Compur Electric #5...

[Oren Grad]

There is no 480 Apo-Sironar-S.

Peter, yes, if you/the camera can handle a 210 SA, the 480 Symmar-S will be easy by comparison. So coverage is indeed the issue.

[naturephoto1]

There is no 480 Apo-Sironar-S.

Peter, yes, if you/the camera can handle a 210 SA, the 480 Symmar-S will be easy by comparison. So coverage is indeed the issue.

Thanks Oren,

I wasn't sure regarding an 489mm Apo Sironar S. I guess they only go up to the 360mm. But, the lenses in the Apo Sironar S series do use ED glass while the Apo Sironar N lenses use flint glass.

Rich

[John Powers]

Peter,

On the LF Forum, go back to Articles, Equipment Reviews, Lens Comparisons, the 11x14 lenses. The Symmar S and APO Symmar are F 8.4 rather than f9.4. At f22 the Nikon 450 M covers 440mm. The APO Symmar 500mm. However I stop my Nikon 450M down and have wonderful coverage on 7x17 (diagonal 466mm). Can’t speak to 8x20. The Nikon uses a 67mm filter, the Symmar a 105mm. They both use a Copal 3 shutter. The Nikon weighs 1.41 pounds. Are you ready for it? The Symmar weighs 3.7 pounds. Another choice is the Rodenstock 480mm Sironar N at 5.07 pounds.

For the next step up I like the Fuji f11.5 600mm C for many of the same reasons.
View Camera on their web site offers a lot of back issue articles in PDF form in their Tech Series CDs. LF Lenses is Tech Series I:

John