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Thread: Deleted View Camera Thread?

  1. #41

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    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    I don't understands why Magnachrome is allowed to post, and View Camera is not.

  2. #42

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    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    This is the guideline on which the decision to delete the thread in question was based:

    >> Conferences, Workshops, Books and Gallery Openings - Announcements of conferences, LF-related trade shows, workshops, book releases and gallery openings may be posted to the Announcements sub-forum (one per event only, please).

    In general, we definitely want to allow, in a non-repetitive way, announcements of educational events. View Camera is of course educational. Announcing the availability of a new periodical falls within this guideline. But, announcing individual issues of a periodical steps outside the non-repetitive portion of this guideline.

    In deciding on this guideline, we've tried to draw a fair line between making information of interest to forum contributors available, yet limiting commercial advertising that could otherwise dilute the topics of interest, which relate to large format photography.

    We've also tried to make exceptions for announcements of events, etc., that are free to contributors. But given how the guidelines are structured, we may want to review further whether periodicals that are free to contributors don't also fall under the above guideline.

    The guidelines have been written to benefit people who have an interest in large format photography, given that the LF Forum is a non-profit, educational entity. Thanks for your input on this matter. It's through input like this that the guidelines have evolved over the years.

  3. #43

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    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    This forum is one of the best anywhere, on any topic, and this is in very large part due to QT Luong's excellent leadership. The moderators he has chosen to help him also deserve credit.

    Moderating a public Internet forum is one of the most thankless jobs on Earth. The moderators here really have done an outstanding job. Having been such a moderator of another forum in another world (FidoNet) many years ago, maybe I just have a little more sympathy than most to their position.

    However, given the fine job QT and his helpers have done for so long, I feel we owe it to them to treat their actions with respect. No one agrees with the moderators 100% of the time. Do we really have to carry on like this every time the moderators take an action with which we disagree? Even if we feel we absolutely must speak out against their horrible injustice, do we really have to sink to the level of questioning their motives?

  4. #44
    Kirk Gittings's Avatar
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    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    View Camera is of course educational. Announcing the availability of a new periodical falls within this guideline. But, announcing individual issues of a periodical steps outside the non-repetitive portion of this guideline.
    If this is really the policy then why can Magnachrom announce every single issue and list the content of every single issue? MC is clearly in violation of your stated interpretation of the guidelines. Why the double standard?


    from Michaels current post for this issue as he has for every issue:

    Dear List,

    Volume 1, Issue 3 of MAGNAchrom has just been released. And it is the best issue ever. With over eight contributors from all walks of the photographic life, this special issue is dedicated to Black and White. At over 100 pages, it is also our largest to date. As a registered user, all you need do is login to download it as well as any of the previous issues. Be sure to let us know what you think!

    You can download (for free) the new v1.3 issue here: www.magnachrom.com



    MAGNAchrom v1.3 Contents

    * SOAPBOX: The Contemplative Photograph
    * HOT MODS: S.K. Grimes Builds the Whatsitcam
    * 4-SQUARE: Oscar Reina
    * PROJECT: Allen Rumme: Markings
    * INTERVIEW: Don Kirby & Joan Gentry
    * PORTFOLIO: Parallels: 16 Photographs
    * CENTERFOLD: Bernhard Hartmann
    * FEATURE: The Carbon Transfer Process
    * VISION: B.A. Bosaiya: Angels and Insects
    * REVIEW: Ebony SW23
    * ROUNDUP: Four Focusing Hoods
    * PARTING SHOT: The Foundry Foreman

    __________________
    J Michael Sullivan
    Editor/Publisher, MAGNAchrom
    www.magnachrom.com
    Thanks,
    Kirk

    at age 73:
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep"

  5. #45
    Eric Biggerstaff
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    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    Rick,

    I think by and large this discussion has been very respectful to the moderators, and I agree they do an excellent job.

    The point that is being made is that the rules should be applied fairly to all. In this case the VC post was almost exacly like the Magnachrom post but he VC post was removed while the MAGNAchrom post was allowed to stay.

    So, we are just trying to determine why this occured and what the future application of the rule should be. In reading the thread, I don't see where any flame wars have started or any disrespectful insults / comments have been made.

    I think everyone on this thread agrees with you that QT and the moderators deserve a great deal of thanks for the work they do.
    Eric Biggerstaff

    www.ericbiggerstaff.com

  6. #46

    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    I'm not an unbiased bystander as I have a relationship with View Camera, so take my impressions with that context.

    I have to strongly agree with Kirk and the others here that what is essentially being done by the moderators is making a 'distinction without a difference'.

    While the method of profitability of the two magazines may be different, make no mistake that the two magazines that are being discussed are operating within the same profit-based infrastructure that we call capitalism. It doesn't matter if one is profitable and the other not, and in my mind it doesn't even matter if it is a 'for profit' or 'not for profit' organization, because in the end, money is changing hands in the mix. This really applies to ANY organization that may post on here, including individuals with FS ads.

    The only true exception to that might be a personal website that has absolutely no commercial nature, and the host or originator has no mechanism for making any profit through direct, secondary, or tertiary vehicles connected to photography.

    In fact, in this particular example of the two magazines, the MAGNAchrom postings can be argued to be more commercial in nature than the View Camera postings, because I'm sure MAGNAchrom's current model for profitability is tied directly to the 'readership' numbers that are collected through registration and downloading of the magazine. ALL of the advertising that is the profit center of the magazine is available through the link and download provided in the posting.

    The View Camera profit model probably does not hinge on people viewing materials on the website at all, and in particular since there are few external advertisements on the website, I suspect that the volume of downloads are not terribly important to advertisers in that magazine. It's the readership of the hard copy that control in their model primarily.

    In other words, while the MAGNAchrom model directly ties the profitability to the volume of traffic that a link in his posting may provide, the View Camera model only indirectly may see profit related to volume of traffic through a link.

    In other words, quit drawing irrelevant lines in the sand. Either make it acceptable for all, or for none, and be done with it.


    ---Michael

  7. #47

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    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    So, what is wrong with allowing some commercial postings, if they are a benefit to the LF community?

  8. #48

    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    Rick,

    I'm not questioning anyone's motives. I just want to understand why the "rule" does not seem to be applied universally and consistantly. I'm not blaming anyone for this. Perhaps, the "rule" is just too vague and ambiguous to allow the moderators to be fair and consistant. In that case, I think an open discussion about changing the "rule" is in order (by rule, I am referring to the forum guidelines covering announcements and commercial postings).

    About a year ago, there was a change in the forum guidelines to allow announcements in the forum about upcoming workshops and conferences - even if those workshops and conferences charged fees. At the time, I argued in favor of this change. I think workshops and conferences help build our community. They attract and educate new users and help keep old users like me actively participating in the large format community. Anything that keeps our little niche market growing and vibrant benefits us all. So, the rules were ammended to allow these types of announcements since the benefit to the overall community was felt to outweigh the relatively minor amount of commercial promotion permitted.

    Like these workshop and conference announcements, Steve's deleted post seemed to me to be just an FYI type announcement. There was no salesmanship. No urging anyone to buy his product - just here'e what it is, thought you might be interested. Just like the MagnaChrom announcements (which I don't have a problem with). As long as these announcements aren't excessive and overbearing, I don't see what the harm is in allowing them. Again, if the articles in these publications spur interest in large format photography and encourage people to try new things, we all benefit. In the end, ANYTHING that convinces people to shoot more sheet film helps keep us a viable market. As long as the announcements are posted in the proper "Announcements" sub-section, they are easily ignored by those who aren't interested.

    Kerry

  9. #49

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    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    What about if Steve wrote it in the FS section? FS number X of VC... Content:
    1. blah blah
    2. blah blah
    3. blah blah...
    After all, he sells it. Would that save the cake while we eat it?

  10. #50
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    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    Reading through this thread, I think the arguments about the difficulty of drawing distinctions re the commercial character of publications are persuasive. I would be very comfortable if the guidelines were amended to explicitly allow posting, in the Announcements section only, of the TOC for new issues of relevant periodicals or for newly-published books. The moderators would retain the right to decide whether a publication is relevant.

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