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Thread: Deleted View Camera Thread?

  1. #121
    Michael Alpert
    Guest

    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    The forum has a New Products section. I would like to suggest that each issue of either magazine, each conference organized by a for-profit company, or any equivalent activity be considered a New Product and should be allowed ONE announcement of itself. That way, everyone will have a moment in the sun, the forum will not be endlessly "mined" by mindless promotions, and the forum moderators will have a rule that will not be seen as arbitrary. Does this modest idea make sense to those in charge of the forum?

  2. #122
    Kirk Gittings's Avatar
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    Mar 2004
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    Albuquerque, Nuevo Mexico
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    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    Actually Steve, it really and truly is free by any normal person's defintion.
    Come on Michael, If MC were truly totally free it would not require registration with a verifiable email address. If that MC registration is worthless to you, discontinue it and just post the magazine for everyone to see.
    Thanks,
    Kirk

    at age 73:
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep"

  3. #123

    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    Michael,

    Don't be so paranoid. Steve is not bashing you or your publication. He is addressing the uneven treatment of his publication by one of the moderating team on this forum.

    If you want the magazine to be truly free, do not require registration to download. You know full well the value of the information that you collect, and I'm sure your advertisers have been marketed with this information as a substantial portion of your justification for your advertising rates. Even if you don't offer a mailing list to the advertisers, you are still mining the information to establish the market size, affluence, buying habits, etc. of the readership.

    Ultimately, I believe that Steve deserves the same access to this forum that you do, because he is no more commercial than you, and you no less than he. That is what Kirk is arguing, and probably most of the other that have posted in support of VC here.


    ---Michael

  4. #124
    MJSfoto1956's Avatar
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    Nov 2004
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    Boston Massachusetts
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    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirk Gittings View Post
    Come on Michael, if it were truly free it would not require registration. If that MC registration is worthless to you, discontinue it.
    MC does require a simple registration. We don't ask anything personal of you. Not your real name, not your real address, no credit cards. All we ask is that you provide a REAL email address which we need to verify. Just like pretty much all forums on the web (including this one). Please note that there are legal ramifications on distributing other people's intellectual property (i.e. your photographs), and we need to use due dilligence to protect their artwork and words. Hence the formal registration process, WHICH IS TOTALLY FREE.

    Kirk, I know for a fact that you have freely provided a real email address to THIS FORUM -- you wouldn't ask the forum to discontinue it, would you? It would make absolutely no sense at all. Give me a break. You are simply being argumentative. And there is no point in it as we mostly agree with each other.

  5. #125
    Kirk Gittings's Avatar
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    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    Michael lets agree to disagree. I'm not going to agree with you on this. Those verifiable registrations are your currency with advertisers. I have worked for some "free" print shelter magazines for 20+ years (now all with websites that you have to register with so they can prove circulation). I know this business.

    All.....I have stated my thoughts numerous times above. I think these announcements should stand. I like seeing them and actually wish more magazines would do it here. It helps me decide whether I want to buy something without having to make the trek to the store to look. Call me lazy.

    However......I do not like the way that this thread is starting to turn personal and I am going to bow out. I know the moderators as a group are looking at this question seriously and I trust their judgement.
    Thanks,
    Kirk

    at age 73:
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep"

  6. #126
    Michael Alpert
    Guest

    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    J. Michael Sullivan stated early on that he did not agree with the deletion. Kirk, everyone understands your first point. Questioning the motives of Sullivan is wrongheaded and beside the point. I think if you do not have to pay anything for something, it is free. Like broadcast TV. It may not be a charity, but it is free.

    A few minutes ago, I suggested an avenue that might lead to a solution to this problem of commercial announcements. If anyone has an alternative solution, let's hear it.

  7. #127

    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Posts
    1,905

    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    I would accept Michael Alpert's suggestion. I think it is a good one.

    To be fair this should apply to all film sales, product updates and announcements, book announcements, conferences etc., workshops, etc.

    Now, what if a third party makes a comment about a product, publication, etc.in another location.Should the owner of that compony marketing that product be allowed to respond? If he answer is yes then, IMHO, the purpose of this rule could easily be defeated by a plant.
    I still think Michael's idea is a good one but this is a kink that needs to be addressed.

    steve simmons

  8. #128

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
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    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by steve simmons View Post
    I would accept Michael Alpert's suggestion. I think it is a good one.

    steve simmons
    Regardless of what you claim you might accept, your track record indicates that you will continue to ignore the rules anyway... Which is most likely what brought your subsequently deleted post to the moderators' attention.

  9. #129

    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    Watching this thread, I'm also disappointed in the personal attacks. My enthusiasm for MC has waned considerably after seeing Michael's unnecessary paranoia.

    Kirk is dead on in his observations. I own a (non-photography) business that operates as an advertiser-supported "free" service. This is the same model as MC's, and there is no aspect of either his or my business that is not purely commercial.

    Actual names and addresses are only one way to monetize such a business, and I don't use them either. Email registrations may indeed prevent spamming, but they are also proof of readership for advertising clients.

    I'm not lobbying for allowing or disallowing either VC or MC posts, but Kirk is correct to observe that Michael's motivations for posting are tangibly commercial.

    -Mick

  10. #130
    Michael Alpert
    Guest

    Re: Deleted View Camera Thread?

    Steve,

    This forum is based on good-will. Without good-will, any rule can be defeated. I think the moderators will need to use their judgement about bogus posts. But, frankly, almost everything posted on this forum seems fine to me. I see no reason to worry when this forum has for many years been managed so thoughtfully.

    The only problems come about when hasty, hostile, or off-subject posts, such as the recent ones by Don H. and Mick N., move in. In the case of this thread, the question is about finding a way to allow commercial announcements while keeping the forum noncommercial in nature. It is the noncommercial essence of the thing that makes a free exchange of ideas and information possible. I would say about this forum: so far so good. I hope my suggestion, or a better suggestion by someone else, is adopted by the moderators.
    Last edited by Michael Alpert; 23-Feb-2007 at 11:36.

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