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Thread: $10,000 Kodak ULF Film Order

  1. #11

    Re: $10,000 Kodak ULF Film Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Vinnedge View Post
    Michael,

    Am I missing something, or are you suggesting that Kodak simply doesn't want to fill such orders, but will do so if they can make it hurt?
    I am not suggesting it - I am stating a known fact. However making it hurt depends upon your reference point.

    From Kodak's point of view filling a relatively small order for a product that is not in their standard product list can be done as a Special Order. If you want to pay their price they are willing to accomodate you - it is as simple as that. Anyone can contact them and most of the time they will listen intently.

    From the consumers point of view the ability to accept the price that they quote you is directly proportional to how bad you want the film. There are no negotiations in this arrangement. For example there was a recent offering for 12x20 color negative sheet film that was offered at a price that I remember at a cost of over $25 a sheet. While I personally find that price terribly aggregious, others found it acceptable and coughed up the dough.

    When we put together the TMY deal we amassed sufficient quantity to tell Kodak that we were simply not going to accept these previous priced arrangements as we could point to many multiples of their minimum volume. Fortunately, things worked out.

    It is what it is...

  2. #12

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    Re: $10,000 Kodak ULF Film Order

    I'm sure that things have changed since I last dealt with special orders from Kodak, but I observed that Kodak UK and Kodak USA had quite different policies, and they would offer different deals. It was worth trying both. If you think that Kodak are ripping you off, try getting a special order from Fuji - they wouldn't even discuss special orders.

    Thanks to Ilford, your bargaining power with Kodak would be greater for B&W film than it is for colour, and maybe that is worth bearing in mind when reading Michael's post.

    Best,
    Helen

  3. #13

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    Re: $10,000 Kodak ULF Film Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Kadillak View Post
    ...When we put together the TMY deal we amassed sufficient quantity to tell Kodak that we were simply not going to accept these previous priced arrangements as we could point to many multiples of their minimum volume. Fortunately, things worked out...
    Well, for certain sizes, things haven't yet "worked out." Some of that film ordered and paid for more than a year ago will allegedly be shipped "soon." Perhaps even multiples of its minimum volume wasn't enough to get Kodak's full attention when lower prices resulted.

    Many who are enthralled with certain Kodak films continue to put up with this situation. I reached my limit and decided to perform necessary testing, then transition my black and white work to the supplier that will most likely be around longest, Ilford. Virtually any size sheets desired can be obtained as part of Ilford's annual special order periods; delivery occurred as promised last time and there's no reason to expect it won't again this May.

    I am fully aware of TMY's virtues for ULF and alternative processes. However, given the supply situation, I suggest trying FP4 Plus instead. It expands just about as well as TMY and, processed in Perceptol 1:1 using a Jobo, my EI is 160 as measured with a Zone VI-modified Pentax digital spot meter. For reference, TMY comes out at EI 400 under the same conditions.

    To me, 1 1/3 stops less sensitivity doesn't seem like a large price to pay for using film from a supplier that actually delivers and doesn't act like it's doing me a favor.

    OK, now let's hear from all those who disagree because they're making 12x20 star trail images...
    Last edited by Sal Santamaura; 6-Feb-2007 at 09:24. Reason: Dyslexia? Meant exposure index, not Internet Explorer.

  4. #14

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    Re: $10,000 Kodak ULF Film Order

    There may be a solution for ULF alt process people to make HP5+ more useable for them,. That is all I can say at the moment but we will report on it as soon as things are settled.

    Secondly, IMHO the leftovers from the previous J and C special order arrangement need to be cleaned up before another order is made. It appears that money was taken and no film has ever been delivered which I think is unfair. Lets get this cleaned up before any new deals are made and new orders taken.

    steve simmons

    If people are interested in Fuji films let me know. I may have a contact at Fuji.

  5. #15
    Marco Annaratone's Avatar
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    Re: $10,000 Kodak ULF Film Order

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    Well, for certain sizes, things haven't yet "worked out." Some of that film ordered and paid for more than a year ago will allegedly be shipped "soon." Perhaps even multiples of its minimum volume wasn't enough to get Kodak's full attention when lower prices resulted.

    ....
    I would like to subscribe 100% to this. Too often do I read statements to the effect that "sourcing ULF film is no problem" only to discover three lines below that it was 11x14 film. Nothing at all against that format, but ULF ain't 11x14 but a bunch of other sizes as well that aren't supported very well at all these days.

    I just ordered a 14x17 with holders and have been scouting relentlessly the market of ULF film for a month now. Bottom line: some ADOX film in my freezer already and a big hope that the Ilford ULF run won't let me down. That is pretty much it.

    (Well, I could always shoot 14x17 green X-ray film., couldn't I? )

  6. #16

    Re: $10,000 Kodak ULF Film Order

    Quote Originally Posted by steve simmons View Post
    There may be a solution for ULF alt process people to make HP5+ more useable for them,. That is all I can say at the moment but we will report on it as soon as things are settled.

    Secondly, IMHO the leftovers from the previous J and C special order arrangement need to be cleaned up before another order is made. It appears that money was taken and no film has ever been delivered which I think is unfair. Lets get this cleaned up before any new deals are made and new orders taken.

    steve simmons

    If people are interested in Fuji films let me know. I may have a contact at Fuji.
    I am in direct contact with Kodak and am agressively working on completing the remaining deliveries to those that have had ordered this film and it is my highest priority. You will hear from us very soon and all will be well.

    Maybe some alt process guys can chime in here about HP5 but I could not use it with #2 Azo was it does not reach sufficient density when even modestly expanded and many of the alt processes need a higher net density than what I required. If you are printing silver and shoot normal scenes then if is a fine film. Try to expand the film and simultaneously attain a net density of 1.65 or higher and my efforts with HP5 fell quite short. I am not trying to start an argument, just state my individual experience with HP5. I am sure that others can offer their experience and the type of printing that they pursue.

  7. #17

    Re: $10,000 Kodak ULF Film Order

    I'm certain Ilford will not let you down. I met with Veronica Cotter from Ilford/Harmon yesterday at Glazer's Camera in Seattle (one of the new US distributors on Ilford's list). She has assured me that Ilford is here to stay in a big way - but then you knew that already from Simon Galley's many posts and appearances. It is now possible to place annual ULF orders and special orders of any size any time if the minimum quantity is met - and I don't believe Ilford intends to fleece.

    I'm planning to place a big order of 14X17 and 16X20 FP4 through Glazer's this month - easy for me since I live here and perhaps easier for others living on the West coast as regards shipping.

  8. #18

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    Re: $10,000 Kodak ULF Film Order

    Be patient with HP5+. There may be a new solution.

    I am glad to hear there are people working on fulfilling the previous paid orders. Nothing will hurt the ULF community more than concerns about orders being paid for and then not delivered.

    steve simmons
    view camera magazine

  9. #19

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    Re: $10,000 Kodak ULF Film Order

    I had similar experiences with HP5+ as Michael. I had hoped the Ilford special order would include FP4 in 2x3, but it did not - only HP5. I'd be very happy to have a film that I can shoot in both 2x3 and 8x10 other than Efke. So, I'm hoping you're right, Steve.
    juan

  10. #20

    Re: $10,000 Kodak ULF Film Order

    Personally, I hope both Ilford and Kodak are successful in their ULF film programs. Last year I bought a bunch of TMAX 400, but passed on the Ilford films as they didn't ofer 4x10. This year, Ilford has added 4x10 FP4+ to their special ULF program. So, I plan to buy some FP4+ in both 4x10 and 7x17 (and maybe 14x17). I still have a pretty good supply of 7x17 TMAX 400 in my freezer, but if Kodak does another ULF run of TMAX 400, I'll order some more. Point is, these are both excellent films and I like having choices. I'm still blown away that is this day and age we can get both of these excellent products in such a wide range of sizes. It's simply amazing and I plan to support both companies to the best of my ability.

    My reasoning isn't altruistic. In fact, it's rather selfish. I want to be able to get good quality ULF film for the rest of my life - not just for the next couple years. The more ULF film we buy today, the greater the availability. The greater the availability of top notch ULF film, the more likely people are to buy a ULF camera and discover the joys of ULF photography. This will create even more demand for ULF film. It's a snowball effect. As long as there is a steady reliable supply of ULF cameras, holders, lenses and film we all win. If there is a weakness in the supply chain of any of these items, sales of the others will suffer. We're all in this together. What's good for one of us is good for all of us.

    Kerry

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