150mm APO Sironar W -- Wow!

[Oren Grad]

Now for the extra 5° (in fact : only +2.5° on both sides of the image ) how much do you want to pay ? This is the real question..

The real answer was "nothing" until I acquired 11x14 and 7x17 cameras. Then the real answer became "quite a bit".

[Brian Vuillemenot]

The sum of well over $1000 that you save by sacrificing that few degrees of coverage buys a hell of a lot of film. I've got my $200 210/5.6 Caltar IIN and it can't be beat on 4X5! The "S" or "W" would have set me back a huge sum of cash, with the only real world benefit being that I can say to my other photo buddies "My lens cost more than yours".

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

The sum of well over $1000 that you save by sacrificing that few degrees of coverage buys a hell of a lot of film. I've got my $200 210/5.6 Caltar IIN and it can't be beat on 4X5! The "S" or "W" would have set me back a huge sum of cash, with the only real world benefit being that I can say to my other photo buddies "My lens cost more than yours".

Brian,

Most people don't pay an extra $1000+ for that extra 5 degrees of coverage. As I mentioned in my previous post, this is the first time I've seen a 150mm APO Sironar-W sell for over $800. I paid $440 for mine on eBay a few years back. I bought a 210mm APO Sironar-W last June from the Calumet booth at the View Camera conference trade show in Rockford for $799 - and it was one of two they sold at that price during the conference. So, you don't have to pay a ridiculous premium to get that extra five degrees of coverage.

This particular eBay auction is atypical, just like the 240mm Germinar-W that recently sold for over $1600 when just last year I sold a bunch of them new and unused in barrel mounts for $250 each. Some people gust get carried away on eBay and run up the prices to previously unheard of levels one some items.

The real benefit of these 80 degree lenses is they make great moderate wide angles "one format up". So, the 150mm APO Sironar-W makes a great moderate wide angle on 5x7 (about like a 110 on 4x5). Same with the 210mm on 8x10. They are much smaller and lighter than the 100 - 110 super wide lenses (APO Symmar XL, Super Angulon, Nikkor SW, Grandagon-N) and USUALLY cost a lot less as well. However, on those formats they offer enough extra coverage over a 72 - 75 degree lens to truly make a difference.

For example, when I shot 5x7 I tried using my 75 degree APO Sironar-S. It's a beautiful lens that I love on 4x5 and as enough coverage for 5x7 with a tiny bit to spare. However, I soon learned that if I tried to use any front rise at all, I quicky ran out over coverage and ended up with vignetted top corners on my 5x7 transparencies. I couldn't really justify the cost/weight of a 150mm superwide, but I really liked the 150mm focal length on the 5x7 format. So, I picked up a very nice 150mm APO Sironar (mine didn't have the -W or the spiffy yellow racing stripe, but it still has 80 degrees of coverage). I found this lens MUCH more usable on 5x7 than my 150mm APO Sironar-S. The extra fve degrees of coverage provided twice as much front rise on 5x7 as the 150mm APO Sironar-S I had been using. This proved to be enough for my needs and I no longer had to worry about vignetted top corners.

Ditto for the 210mm APO Sironar-W on 8x10. Try using a 72-75 degree 210 lens on 8x10 and you'll either just miss or just barely cover the full image area. You will have little or no headroom for movements. With an 80 degree 210mm you have enough coverage to actually use some moderate movements on 8x10 in a lens that's not tiny, but less than 1/2 the weight and usually 1/4 - 1/2 the price of a 210mm Super Symmar XL.

And, if you don't mind carrying a bigger, heavier lens, everything I said above also applies to the Schneider Super Symmar HM series. Once upon a time, the Super Symmar HM was Schneider's top-of-the-line, state-of-the-art product line. At the time, they were quite expensive and sold for even more than Rodenstock's competing APO Sironar-W line. Then Schneider came out with the Super Symmar XL line with even more coverage and that was pretty much the end of the 80 degree plasmats. Super Symmar HMs could be snapped up at bargain prices as many photographers sold them off in a rush to get the latest and greatest Super Symmar XL series. Prices have crept back up a little, but I have yet to see anything approaching the $1700 level for a 150mm Super Symmar HM. They typically sell for about $750. I've seen a few go for less on eBay and a few priced a little higher at dealers.

In any case, sorry to ramble. I think $1700 is way over the top for a 150mm APO Sironar-W. I certainly wouldn't pay that much for one (and I love the lens). I was just trying to answer your question about what benefit the extra 5 - 8 degrees of coverage provides compared to a standard 72 - 75 degree plasmat.

Kerry

[Oren Grad]

Following up on Kerry's point: the 150 ASW is an ideal match to a 5x7 Nagaoka or Ikeda. On that wonderful camera, the 150 SS-XL is overkill, and the 150 Nikkor-SW is impossible.

[Joseph O'Neil]

Totally insane on two fronts. First, I personally don't like 150mm lenses - too "normal" for my taste. That's the reason I use a 135 and 180mm.

Secondly, I have a 135mm Sironar N, not W, but N. Bought it new. Now just about every self professed "expert" on every newsgroup, forum, mailing list, web site, etc, etc, goes on and on about how much superior the W version is.

You know what, after years of using the 135 N, I think all these "experts' are nuts.
What a wonderful little lens the 135 Sirnar N is. Lightweight, compact, easy to travel with, and you know something, B+W filters in the 40.5mm range are a lot less expensive than in the 50 to 60mm range.

I dunno, but do the guys who bid up these prices actually ahve any first hand experience with these optics to begin with?

joe

[Christopher Perez]

Joe,

You're safe. There is no such thing as a 135mm Sironar W.

Superiority only counts if the thing in question actually exists.

... I have a 135mm Sironar N, not W, but N. Bought it new. Now just about every self professed "expert" on every newsgroup, forum, mailing list, web site, etc, etc, goes on and on about how much superior the W version is....

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Secondly, I have a 135mm Sironar N, not W, but N. Bought it new. Now just about every self professed "expert" on every newsgroup, forum, mailing list, web site, etc, etc, goes on and on about how much superior the W version is.

You know what, after years of using the 135 N, I think all these "experts' are nuts.
What a wonderful little lens the 135 Sirnar N is. Lightweight, compact, easy to travel with, and you know something, B+W filters in the 40.5mm range are a lot less expensive than in the 50 to 60mm range.

Joseph,

I agree that the 135mm Sironar-N is a wonderful little lens. I have one that I use for backpacking with my 4x5 Toho. It's a perfect fit between my 90mm Congo and my 200mm Nikkor M.

However, it doesn't cover 5x7 at all. That's the one area where the 150mm APO Sironar-W is "superior" to the smaller, lighter, less expensive 135mm APO Sironar-N. Comparing the two is definitely applesranges.

Kerry

[Bob Salomon]

"B+W filters in the 40.5mm range are a lot less expensive than in the 50 to 60mm range. "

I can't speak for the other German company but I can for Heliopan.

40.5 filters are less expensive then 58 to 62mm filters. 40.5mm filters are more expensive then 46, 49 and 52 and 55mm filters. 40.5 filters are the same price as 48mm filters.

The price depends on the popularity of a size as well as the size of the glass, the coatings and the amount of brass needed to make the ring.

Of course these examples are for standard 6 coat per side UV, KR, KB, and black and white filters. For 12 coat per side and other types of fillters the price differences may vary from the above examples. And before anyone asks, yes these are slim mounts as those are the only type of mount used by Heliopan for these types of filters.

[Bob Salomon]

" it doesn't cover 5x7 at all. That's the one area where the 150mm APO Sironar-W is "superior" to the smaller, lighter, less expensive 135mm APO Sironar-N."

The Apo Sironar N 150mm most certainly does cover 5x7. The factory specifies it as covering a 214mm circle which just allows 3mm and 2mm of shift on 5x7.

The Apo Sironar S 150mm that replaced the W covers a 231mm circle which allows for 17mm of rise and 13mm of shift on 5x7 in a relatively small and light lens.

The Apo Sironar/Apo Sironar W 150mm covered a 252mm circle allowing for 33mm of rise and 26mm of shift.

The Apo Sironar N 150 weighs 7.8 oz and takes 49mm filters.
The Apo Sironar S 150 weighs 8.8 oz and takes 49mm filters.
The Apo Sironar W 150 weighs 13.4 oz and takes 72mm filters.

That makes the S an outstanding performer as well as very small and light when compared to the W and at far less cost.

[Arne Croell]

Arne Croell has placed a MTF chart (@10lp/mm : I would have preferred @20lp ) for the 300 mm apo-sironar N, the S and the W. May be if he reads this he could add a comment.

http://photo.net/bboard/uploaded-fil...ad_id=11156684

This diagram is a good explanation of the different trade-off in the design between the -N, -S, and -W ; the apo-N does not really suffer by comparison except for its more limited coverage. And the -W is not better at the center.. but covers slightly more.

Emmanuel, I don't have much to add - the diagrams show, as you said, the design tradeoffs. Here are the original MTF curves, for the 210mm Apo-Sironar-N, -S, and -W lenses, from left to right, respectively (and including the 20lp/mm curve). Note that the x-axes are scaled differently due to the differences in coverage.