That's fine but the point is to create a set if ethical guidelines in which these sorts of things are explicitly acknowledged and agreed to and adopted.Originally Posted by David A. Goldfarb
That's fine but the point is to create a set if ethical guidelines in which these sorts of things are explicitly acknowledged and agreed to and adopted.
Personally, I would be willing to adopt such guidelines. Then again, that doesn't help a whole lot. I don't sell that much.
cyrus,
"The seller or buyer? Ethically, it should be the seller, IMHo." Why?
'Let the buyer beware' has been in effect since ancient Rome. From your desciption the shutter only needed a CLA, perfectly normal for a used shutter. It sounds like your repair shop sold you a 'bucket of steam'.
As for a seller ethics guideline, you would also need a buyer ethics guideline. This will happen after horses climb trees.
Welcome to ebay or any other auction site.
"I think it is too late to raise a stink with the seller, especially since I already gave him a positive feedback. I suppose he wrote "mint, not tested but speeds sound right" on his auction, and I suppose I can't judge badly him for failing to tell the difference of 1/250th and 1/100ht shutter speed by ear alone. but still, who should be responsible for hidden damage in that sort of circumstance? The seller or buyer? Ethically, it should be the seller, IMHo."
Why?
A check or control already exists in the form of the eBay feedback mechanism. I think it is important to leave appropriate feedback for every transaction. To do that, you as a seller, must be able to determine that all the conditions of the sale have been met and the seller's obligations are complete. That would include inspection and testing of the item within the agreed upon time frame. If you can't do that then its your problem and not the sellers if you find something wrong after the term. Both the seller and the buyer have to complete all their obligations. You are buying what the auction terms state, no more and no less. Not what you imagine or wish the item to be.
A seller owes you nothing after the terms and conditions have been satisfied. No more than you would owe the seller more money because he thought the item sold too cheaply. Not to say some sellers won't go further than what is required from the written agreement. But if that happens you are lucky. I would consider it a gift.
Sometimes the seller may not have any idea about what they're selling, what it does or is supposed to do beyond the most basic "its a camera" Or the seller may have bought it from someone at a camera show and its not been used for 25 years. Who knows?
eBay really is largely a crapshoot driven by greed. We and millions of others go there in search of a "great deal" or a "real steal". We are hunting a price too good to be had otherwise. Otherwise we'd just buy what we want from the local camera store or our favorite dependable supplier who we might even know by name.
I am almost sure that buying and selling here on this forum is safer than eBay. The collegial atmosphere demands it if the buyer and seller are to remain part of the community. And then there are our well known dependable suppliers who's names pop up here from time to time. How about giving them your business if you're worried about eBay dealings? By the time you save on eBay and PayPal fees you'll probably get what you want cheaper. And they'll even take it back if there's a problem. There are more secure places to buy than eBay if you can't stand the odds there.
Now, please tell me how your going to implement this type of ethical situation with all of the thousands of sellers who sell camera gear on ebay?
I purchase a hell of a lot of stuff on ebay, I bid what I feel I can afford to loose, just like I do when I go to Vegas or Reno, I leave appropriate feedback when things vary from their description and I deal with it, when I make a bad purchase, which I don't often do, if you want ethics and complete disclosure, then only deal with people you absolutely know to be fair when they are describing something, IE: Midwest, Jim Gali, Badger, ebay is not the place to trust anyone to describe something correctly, I agree with Henry, the odds on ebay are difficult to judge and often times, what they describe as mint, may very well be mint to them, but we are a demanding group of people with far more knowledge than most who sell camera gear...I just don't see it becoming a workable situation, because I can tell you, I look for what I want, and I buy what I want, and I have a different set of rules than others, I don't think I could jump in the pool to boycott someone based on what you are describing. That is, unless it is a blatant lie when it arrives, and then I just leave the appropriate feedback, unless they are willing to work something out to both of our satisfaction.
Dave
I always buy a shutter with the assumption I am going to have to spend 50$ for a CLA. Unless the seller claims that it was recently serviced it is foolish to think otherwise. Not everyone has a shutter testing thingamabob.
Simple - I say - "look at the these guidelines, do you agree to abide by them"
If the seller says yes, or no, or ignores the request, all of that is information which is useful to me as a buyer. And if enough buyers ask enough sellers, these will become a defacto "rules" albeit on a voluntary basis.
Similar "rules" are already in effect - the old "buyer beware" is one - but no one says that HAS to be the rule forever and ever and can't change. Online auctions are a new environment which aren't comparable to the old marketplace of yester-century, after all.
..I think it is important to leave appropriate feedback for every transaction. To do that, you as a seller, must be able to determine that all the conditions of the sale have been met and the seller's obligations are complete. That would include inspection and testing of the item within the agreed upon time frame. If you can't do that then its your problem and not the sellers if you find something wrong after the term. Both the seller and the buyer have to complete all their obligations. [/QUOTE]
Yo Henry,
well said, and I couldn't agree with you more.
eBay really is largely a crapshoot driven by greed. We and millions of others go there in search of a "great deal" or a "real steal". We are hunting a price too good to be had otherwise. Otherwise we'd just buy what we want from the local camera store or our favorite dependable supplier who we might even know by name. [/QUOTE]
THIS I cannot agree on! With extensive ebay buying experience, I would like to point out the following:
One's local camera store and favorite supplier simply do not have the inventory to provide all the various used items which we can find on ebay. And when we are fortunate to find what we are looking for locally, we can expect to pay retail. Buying used gear allows us the freedom to try what we think we want, then pass it along, without great loss, if we decide to move on to another size/ style/ type. Ebay, and forums such as this, are convenient places to shop, particularly for those of us living outside a large metropolitan area. We, and millions of others, shop this way to find a terrific selection at used market price, not to "steal".
By the time you save on eBay and PayPal fees you'll probably get what you want cheaper. And they'll even take it back if there's a problem. There are more secure places to buy than eBay if you can't stand the odds there.[/QUOTE]
While a private party transaction is likely to be much cheaper, there are certainly more secure places to buy. And I personally do not think any set of guidelines will prevent the dishonest sellers, who I think are the minority, from taking unfair advantage.
best, andy
THERE'S MORE TO OPTICS THAN MEETS THE EYE
I agree. The best way to solve a problem is to take steps that avoid the problem in the first place. Clear and accurate descriptions, encourage questions, and take time to fully respond to questions.
The most recent unethical behavoir I experienced was someone misrepresenting himself. His handle was (and probably still is) OlympusUSA. I thought I was dealing with old stock from Olympus. And, he used descriptions that deliberately gave that impression.
Having paid a higher price for that reason, I tried to back out of the transaction because I'd been misled, but EBay strong armed me into completing the deal. So, I did. On investigation, EBay has no rules against trademark infringement, which is illegal. They have a guideline, sort of, but no rules against it. Yet, the legal remedy for trademark infringement is withdrawing from the transaction. I think that EBay let me down on this one.
As it turned out, I got a nice lens out of the deal. It was in mint condition. Still, I disliked being hoodwinked.
Neil, at least you got a good lens, although expensive. It's the bad stuff you buy that's really expensive, no matter how little you paid for it.
As for sellers and ethical guidelines - honest people, by the very definition, will not cheat with or without an official rules of conduct. It is the crooks that bend the rules and one more will not stop them. If anything, it will make it easier for them.
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