Let's start a petition for Pan-F in 4x5!

[sanking]

I hope it's ok if we disagree. Further, I have nothing but great respect for all kinds of alternative proceses. I think gravure is truly amazing....

Lenny

It is fine to disagree, and we all have certain preferences in terms of our films. But in the end the major difference in films for LF is in the shape of the curve and how this translates into tonal values on the print. Grain does not matter much in this size, and developers, dilutions and type of agitation are primarily responsible for apparent sharpness.

Many people don't like T-grain films like Tmax-100 and Tmax-400, and I believe the major reason for this is that they are both very responsive films that require tight control of time and temperature to reach a desired CI, and to the fact that they have very long straight curves that don't compensate for mistakes in exposure or development, as might be the case with films that have long toes and pronounced shouldering. However, the fact of the matter is that these characteristics, when understood, can be exploited. And the proof is in the pudding as they say, because some the most technically proficient photograhers in the world (Sexton, Barnbaum, for example), are making great images with these films, so I just think it not very smart for someone to diss T-grain films merely because they don't work in their experience.

Sandy King

[KenM]

It is fine to disagree, and we all have certain preferences in terms of our films. But in the end the major difference in films for LF is in the shape of the curve and how this translates into tonal values on the print. Grain does not matter much in this size, and developers, dilutions and type of agitation are primarily responsible for apparent sharpness.

Many people don't like T-grain films like Tmax-100 and Tmax-400, and I believe the major reason for this is that they are both very responsive films that require tight control of time and temperature to reach a desired CI, and to the fact that they have very long straight curves that don't compensate for mistakes in exposure or development, as might be the case with films that have long toes and pronounced shouldering. However, the fact of the matter is that these characteristics, when understood, can be exploited. And the proof is in the pudding as they say, because some the most technically proficient photograhers in the world (Sexton, Barnbaum, for example), are making great images with these films, so I just think it not very smart for someone to diss T-grain films merely because they don't work in their experience.

Sandy King

I don't think Barnbaum uses any t-grain films - for 4x5 he uses Tri-X, Techpan and Infrared (still has a cache of the last two...), and in 120 he uses FP4+, HP5 (I think), and Techpan.

Sexton uses TMax....quite successfully too - I received his new book for Christmas. Very, very nice work.

[sanking]

I don't think Barnbaum uses any t-grain films - for 4x5 he uses Tri-X, Techpan and Infrared (still has a cache of the last two...), and in 120 he uses FP4+, HP5 (I think), and Techpan.

Sexton uses TMax....quite successfully too - I received his new book for Christmas. Very, very nice work.

If that is so I apologize for the error. I saw some comparison tests Barnbaum did with pyro staining developers and may have concluded incorrectly that he used Tmax films.

Still, the point still stands as a lot of outstanding work is being done with t-grain films.

Sandy

[Lenny Eiger]

All of my pictures are made with tmx 400, you might not like them, but let me tell you the film delivers great tonality each and every time....

I don't want to get into a discussion of aesthetics on this thread. And I don't ever tell people I don't like their work - whether or not I do. I have taught for many years and I believe one should look at what a photographer is trying to do and help them accomplish it. If you look you can almost always see the intent.

I looked at your images and it may just be the conversion to web, but in your architectural shots there are large areas where tone is missing. I would only know if this was real if I saw the actual prints. If you are happy, that's great.

Lenny

[Lenny Eiger]

And the proof is in the pudding as they say, because some the most technically proficient photograhers in the world (Sexton, Barnbaum, for example), are making great images with these films, so I just think it not very smart for someone to diss T-grain films merely because they don't work in their experience.
Sandy King

I went over this over the last few years with Steve Anchell, Gordon Hutchings and Bud Wilson. They all agree with me. Further, I don't want to print in the style of Sexton or Barnbaum. I like portraying the world as I see it - and I don't see it that contrasty.

Those folks may be your heroes, and that's fine. I would rather look at Paul Caponigro for contemporary, or Stieglitz, Frederick and Walker Evans, O'Sullivan, Cameron, Clarence White, Lange and a host of others. I saw some prints last summer by Sutcliffe that really knocked me off my feet....

Finally, I am trying to be polite here - and I don't think its constructive to suggest people are not smart. You don't know anything about me. I could be very smart, I might even be right about TGrained films. And maybe not. But it's no reason to be rude. I don't think a discussion about film is worth it.

[sanking]

I went over this over the last few years with Steve Anchell, Gordon Hutchings and Bud Wilson. They all agree with me. Further, I don't want to print in the style of Sexton or Barnbaum. I like portraying the world as I see it - and I don't see it that contrasty.

Those folks may be your heroes, and that's fine. I would rather look at Paul Caponigro for contemporary, or Stieglitz, Frederick and Walker Evans, O'Sullivan, Cameron, Clarence White, Lange and a host of others. I saw some prints last summer by Sutcliffe that really knocked me off my feet....

Finally, I am trying to be polite here - and I don't think its constructive to suggest people are not smart. You don't know anything about me. I could be very smart, I might even be right about TGrained films. And maybe not. But it's no reason to be rude. I don't think a discussion about film is worth it.

I did not say, or even suggest, you were not smart. What I said was, "I just think it is not very smart for someone to diss T-grain films merely because they don't work in their experience." My comment re: smart was to something you said, not to you as a person. Some people don't seem to understand this kind of distinction, and you are apparently one of them.

If you really want to be polite you might start by refraining from telling people who probably know a lot more about Pt./Pd. printing than you that T-grain films will fail them every time. That is simply BS.

As for being rude, your snide comments about Jorge's work tells me all I need to know about you.


Sandy King

[tim atherton]

If you really want to be polite you might start by refraining from telling people who probably know a lot more about Pt./Pd. printing than you that T-grain films will fail them every time. That is simply BS.

Sandy King

Hmm this is a guy as I recall who has printed Pt/Pd since the 70's or 80's, run a platinum printing business and taught photography, alt and silver processes at Parsons, Cooper Union etc etc if I'm not mistaken? I certainly remember seeing some stuff about him back in the 80's early 90's - I don't think he's some kind of newbie...?

[sanking]

Hmm this is a guy as I recall who has printed Pt/Pd since the 70's or 80's, run a platinum printing business and taught photography, alt and silver processes at Parsons, Cooper Union etc etc if I'm not mistaken? I certainly remember seeing some stuff about him back in the 80's early 90's - I don't think he's some kind of newbie...?

I think he said on another thread that he had some forty years of printing experience so I was aware of the fact that this guy is not some kind of "newbie."

So what? The issue is that he stated categorically that the T-Grain films would fail with Pt./Pd. printing, "every time". Sorry, but that is simply wrong, regardless of whatever professional credentials he may have.

Sandy King

[tim atherton]

I think he said on another thread that he had some forty years of printing experience so I was aware of the fact that this guy is not some kind of "newbie."

So what? The issue is that he stated categorically that the T-Grain films would fail with Pt./Pd. printing, "every time". Sorry, but that is simply wrong, regardless of whatever professional credentials he may have.

Sandy King

which wasn't what I said - those distinctions again

"So what" -the "so what" appears to be the rather large (and potentially mistaken) assumption that "you might start by refraining from telling people who probably know a lot more about Pt./Pd. printing than you"

that's all

[sanking]

which wasn't what I said - those distinctions again

"So what" -the "so what" appears to be the rather large (and potentially mistaken) assumption that "you might start by refraining from telling people who probably know a lot more about Pt./Pd. printing than you"

that's all

What distinctions? I did not quote you in any way.

However, anyone who thinks that T-grain films will fail you every time with Pt./Pd. does not know much about the process as far as I am concerned. For that reason alone it is reasonable for me to assume that people who have printed Pt./Pd. with good results with T-grain films know a lot more about the subject than Lenny.

Sandy King