Cost

[MIke Sherck]

And, finally, the middle-of-the-road compromise: if your interest is primarily black and white, consider 5x7. Nice contact prints (no enlarger needed,) not much more expensive than 4x5, and when you decide that you really want larger prints, 5x7 enlargers can be found for less than the cost of one 11x14 film holder. No 5x7 polaroid material in that size, though. If what you want to do is digital printing, 4x5 is easier to find scanners for than anything larger. It isn't my thing, but some people seem to like it ok...

A word about Polaroid materials... I have a love-hate relationship. Polaroid Type 55 produces both a B&W negative and a B&W print and it's just excellent quality but... $90 for 20 sheets? A professional might not mind (cost of doing business,) but for my personal work it's out of line. On the other hand, I believe that it does speed up the learning process (any polaroid film, not just Type 55.) Being able to instantly see the results (what you did right, what you did wrong,) so you can fix it immediately is very helpful, in my humble opinion. Whether it's cheaper than taking your film home (or to the lab) and processing it and seeing what happened and trying to remember what you did -- I suppose that depends on you. Good luck!

Mike

[John Kasaian]

What Mike says is worth considering, especially as you've indicated a preference for 11x14. To my eyes the perspective offered by a 5x7 is more like an 11x14 than a 4x5. 5x7 is a good size for contact prints. OTOH if big prints is what floats your boat, 5x7 enlargers are quite a bit more expensive than the garden variety 4x5 Omegas and you'll be using more chemistry and more expensive film----but still it would be way less costly than buying and feeding an 11x14 kit.

[j.e.simmons]

FYI, one of our forum members has a 4x5 for sale right now

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...ad.php?t=20971

This is a good example of what is for sale rather inexpensively (although I have not seen this particular camera).
juan

[Donald Qualls]

I'll add my voice to suggest starting with 4x5. You can resell your equipment (possibly excepting an enlarger, which tend to be too large and heavy to be readily shipped and therefore hard to resell) later for about what you paid, if you find 4x5 isn't large enough and wish to move up to 8x10, 10x12, or 11x14.

There's no question that, for an 11x14 print, a contact print is going to have the greatest clarity -- but if you ever want smaller prints, you're in real trouble starting from an 11x14 negative, because although it's possible to use an enlarger to print smaller than the negative, there aren't many 11x14 enlargers around (and the only reasonably cost-effective way to do this would be with an enlarging head replacing the film back on your 11x14 camera).

A 4x5 negative printed to 16x20 (bigger than you say you'll want to go) is only enlarged four times in each dimension; that's like a 4x6 print from 35 mm, except that almost no one puts their nose right up to a 16x20 print. That means a 16x20 from 4x5 will look *better* (because, from further away, blur and grain are reduced relative to holding that 4x6 print close enough to see it well). As already suggested, 4x5 enlargers aren't terribly expensive; I got mine, with cold light head, high quality 135 mm lens, broad range of negative carriers, a bunch of extra lens boards and cones, and some loose accessories that turned up in the lot, for $250; I've long since made prints with it that would have cost more than that from a custom printer (Moon Photo in Seattle used to charge me $9 for an 8x10 straight RC print from a large format negative).

Moreover, 4x5 equipment can frequently be had for a song, if it's a good enough song. I paid $150 for my Speed Graphic (without lens, but with 100% functional and accurate-seeming focal plane shutter and light tight bellows); I regularly see older, possibly unidentified 4x5 flatbed and monorail cameras on eBay finish for under $100. Add a lens (potentially as low as $25 for a plate camera with good 135 mm or 150 mm lens, shutter needing only minor cleaning, and shot bellows) and some film holders (routinely about $8 each, used, on eBay, for modern plastic holders in good condition) and you could have a whole 4x5 setup for less than a cost of a single 11x14 film holder -- and get an enlarger for less than you'd pay for a single lens that will cover 11x14 (and still not having anything between the lens and film).

[nash]

Hey! Keep the words coming, I want the good, bad and ugly in the area I want to get into. That is nobody can beat my prints for clarity and dynamics. I understand that composition , etc may be a different story but in this thread I am talking about cost and clarity etc. If the majority opinion is to start at 4x5 B&W and learn and then work my way up then that looks like the way I will go. The settings of the standards and other settings are what I am unsure of and I am scared of throwing a lot of film down the drain in the possess of learning etc. I feel that you people have been though this so I hope that you people lead me around mistakes that you have made learning large format and possessing. But I feel so strong that small and medium format digital still can not beat large format film That I want to get into it. Large format backs are out of my price range and I am unsure that they are better than large format film. Please keep the words coming and sites that I can learn what you people have already learn.

nash

[John Bowen]

When it comes to polaroid keep an eye on Ebay. Someone is selling type 72 for $29 per box of 20 exposures. The film is just slightly out of date.

I have no interest in the auction.....I just love type 72 polaroid and like getting it for a great price. Polaroid is an excellent learning tool.

Have you considered a workshop? Bruce Barlow, Richard Ritter and Ted Harris host the Fine Focus Workshops in Southern VT and NH about 4-5 times a year. One of their topics is Getting the Most out of Large Format. They have equipment you could use and love using Polaroid to teach with. They are at www.FineFocusWorkshops.com I am an alumnus of their workshops and they do a great job, highly recommended.

[Ed Richards]

I second the workshop idea. 11x14 is a pretty small print. While it is heresy on this list, a full frame camera such as a Canon 5d makes a pretty good 11x14 print, unless you need movements. You have not talked about what you want to take picture of - it really changes the equation. If you are doing rocks in the desert on calm days or quiet forest glades with no wind, 11x14 is great. Add some wind, some subject movement, some problems with access, and 4x5 beats 11x14. Try to take pictures of wildlife or kids, and full frame digital beats LF.

[brook]

One thing noone has mentioned is the sheer physical difficulty of dealing with 11x14 and bigger. Everything is big, heavy, and cumbersome. Depth of field challanges enter a new league, and darkroom processes really get to be two fisted affairs.
A 5x7 w/ a 4x5 back would give you the best of a lot of worlds.

[nash]

Hey! Because I have no working knowledge of LF and am thinking about cost while I learn I have been convinced that 4x5 is the way to go and upgrade at a later time if LF is for me. Not only will I have to learn LF but also processing. Both these I do not have the most confidence in learning but I did not have much confidence in learning to ride my bicycle when I was five. I hope to come out better learning LF and processing without a scratch. Unlike the bicycle learning. My main interest is nature. But back in the swamps of South Carolina it can be worst than the bicycle days. Do most people agree that 4x5 B&W is going to cost less to learn on than 11x14 and then maybe upgrade to 11x14 when I get my skills? What throws my confidence off is have to adjust the standards. The tilt , swing etc in LF. That is the bicycle part to me. Will I have to learn all that before I can take my first shoot? I am going to be lucky in get thought the 20 steps the how to articles says. I am more afraid of these 20 steps than I was learning to fly an airplane. Can I go ahead and learn the 20 steps and take pictures before I start working with tilt, swing etc? My luck I will be putting the dark slide in to take the picture and pulling it back out to remove the film holder. I am should a lot of you went thought this also. But to have my friends ask me how did I get that picture so clear and sharp means something to me.

Thanks for your point of view

[nash]

Please explain a 5x7 w/ a 4x5 back would give you the best of a lot of worlds.