Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 65

Thread: Survey on Zone System vs BTZS

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Kirk Gittings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Albuquerque, Nuevo Mexico
    Posts
    9,864

    Survey on Zone System vs BTZS

    I am just curious about who is using what. Don't worry, I am not constructing a Zone Wacko hit list. I am curious because it appears that more people on this forum use BTZS or at minimum they are the most vocal. I understand that there are levels of investment in these approaches, but give it your best shot.

    Do you use the Zone System, Beyond the Zone System BTZS, no formal system, or something like the old YOB?

    I use the Zone System at varying levels of complexity, right now pretty bare bones. It works for me and has for 30 years.
    Last edited by Kirk Gittings; 28-Aug-2006 at 08:12.
    Thanks,
    Kirk

    at age 73:
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep"

  2. #2
    Eric Biggerstaff
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    1,327

    Re: Survey on Zone System vs BTZS

    Kirk,

    I use the Zone System, similiar in method to what you do - very simple and straight forward.
    Eric Biggerstaff

    www.ericbiggerstaff.com

  3. #3
    Cooke, Heliar, Petzval...yeah
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    700

    Re: Survey on Zone System vs BTZS

    Hi Kirk,

    You can actually use poll option to do your survey. I am using both.
    So do four options ZS, BTZS, Both and Other - Specify in a thread.

    My two cents.
    Peter Hruby
    www.peterhruby.ca

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2

    Re: Survey on Zone System vs BTZS

    I have been using BTZS since 1995. And in the last 6 years without needing a palm pilot, just my field notes.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    2,474

    Re: Survey on Zone System vs BTZS

    Spot metering, no deeper knowledge of the Zone system or its derivatives. 15-20 years (I've lost the count) of work for stock agencies on two continents.

  6. #6
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    8,640

    Re: Survey on Zone System vs BTZS

    I don't feel a need to control development on a sheet-by-sheet basis. I use a shaded reading with an incident meter set for a conservative EI to expose for the shadows and let the highlights fall where they may, then almost always just develop for a standard time determined for each film/developer combination. Once in a great while, if I've exposed several sheets under the same very extreme conditions I might push or pull a Jobo drumload by a modest amount to partially compensate.

    FWIW, I've studied BTZS and have had the experience of working through its basic procedures during a visit with Phil Davis. I think BTZS is a superb system for learning practical sensitometry. I think it's better than the Zone System in that respect because it integrates all the pieces, including the understanding of film and paper characteristic curves and how they interact to produce the tonal scale, within a consistent framework. With that understanding, you can apply as much or as little of the procedural apparatus as you need to meet your objectives.

    It's also clear that photographers who have figured out what characteristic curves are about and know how to interpret their ZS readings in light of that can use ZS very successfully.

    As for Y.O.B., I've got Parry Yob's book on my shelf. I picked it up for a buck or so as a remainder maybe 20 years ago, worth it as a souvenir of the wacky early days of Petersen's Photographic magazine.

    PS: In response to Ed's later post, I'm printing exclusively in traditional mode, on variable contrast silver paper.
    Last edited by Oren Grad; 28-Aug-2006 at 09:14.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Westport Island, Maine
    Posts
    1,236

    Re: Survey on Zone System vs BTZS

    I have to admit that I've read Mr. Davis' book twice, and can't for the life of me figure out how it applies to photography... For all the folks who use BZTS, my experience clearly says more about me than about BZTS!

    I use Picker's system, modified slightly: Place brightest thing on Zone VIII, make exposure, develop normally. Flip holder. Place same brightest thing on Zone VI 1/2, make exposure, develop N+1 1/2. Good choice of negatives, one with more contrast. Never fails unless I experiment and place 2nd neg on Zone VII to push the envelope. Only works sometimes. Proofs are gorgeous and negs print like butter. Even-numbered holders are always N, odd-numbered holders are always N+1 1/2. Almost impossible to confuse, and no notes required. More brain available for finding good pictures (and we established my amount of brain as "small" in the first paragraph...).

    Close Enough for Photography, as we say in New England.

    I've done the tests to establish proper ISO and proper development time for my developer and "house" paper, so all the pieces are trimmed up. It took one day's testing, and most of that time was spent aggressively waiting for negatives to dry. I have different development times for Azo, and follow a similar procedure for Azo 2 and Azo grade 3 with even and odd holders. Since all those are 5x7 and 8x10s for contact prints, there's no way I'll confuse development times with 4x5 negs that I'll enlarge.

    I don't think I'd have the patience for the level of precision BZTS gives, nor have I found that such a level of precision is necessary. There are so many other places where error and imprecision can creep in, that it seems like those small discrepancies would run roughshod over the precision I'm trying to achieve through BZTS.

    Now, will all of you please try to play nice?
    Bruce Barlow
    author of "Finely Focused" and "Exercises in Photographic Composition"
    www.brucewbarlow.com

  8. #8
    darr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    2,291

    Re: Survey on Zone System vs BTZS

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Barlow
    Now, will all of you please try to play nice?
    ... and miss all the entertainment?

    I started with the Zone System (Picker's book) in school and found it to be an easily understood and applied method, similar to replicating chiaroscuro in the drawing of form. I read Davis' book twenty years later and thought it was a bit over done since I subscribe to the k.i.s.s. philosophy.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Dec 1997
    Location
    Baraboo, Wisconsin
    Posts
    7,697

    Re: Survey on Zone System vs BTZS

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Barlow
    . . . I use Picker's system, modified slightly: Place brightest thing on Zone VIII, make exposure, develop normally. Flip holder. Place same brightest thing on Zone VI 1/2, make exposure, develop N+1 1/2. Good choice of negatives, one with more contrast. Never fails unless I experiment and place 2nd neg on Zone VII to push the envelope. . .
    Don't you ever want to do something other than make a "normal" negative? Don't you sometimes see a scene that you'd like to interpret as perhaps a high-key print in which the darkest important shadow is on Zone VI say? Or maybe create a dark, moody print in which the brightest highlight is on Zone IV or V say?

    I'm sorry if that sounds argumentative, I don't mean it that way. I ask partly because I'm genuinely interested in how you deal with situations like that (assuming you do) with a system in which the brightest important highlight will always end up on Zone VIII and the darkest important shadow will always fall willy nilly wherever it happens to fall based on the brightness range of the scene. I also ask in order to make the point that I think we sometimes lose sight of the fact that Adams and Archer didn't create the zone system solely for the purpose of allowing us to make a "normal," easily printable negative every time. Part of the purpose of the zone system is to provide a method that can be used creatively, i.e. one with which we can make a print that interprets a scene the way we would like to see it as a print rather than exactly as it would look if we made a "normal" negative and print.

    The zone system (and BTZS, at least as I think many people use it) allows that to be done relatively easily. I don't see how the system you describe does but I don't mean that argumentatively, I'm interested in your thoughts.

    I also have to say that I'm surprised anyone who can work in half zones says he lacks the patience for BTZS. : - )

    Sorry to go off on a tangent and away from Kirk's poll. I presently use BTZS for film testing (though I do very little of that any more) and otherwise use the traditional zone system. So I guess Kirk can put me in the "Zone System" column.
    Brian Ellis
    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you do criticize them you'll be
    a mile away and you'll have their shoes.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    123

    Re: Survey on Zone System vs BTZS

    I'm strictly zone system - which doesn't restrict one who wants varying results. Normally you just expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights, as the rule says. But, if you want to place some particular object in a particular zone, you can do so and let the other objects fall in whatever zone they will. If the range of zones metered is too wide, you can negative develop; if it is too narrow, you can plus develop. The lower the zone, the less it moves with increased development; the higher the zone, the more it moves. Very simple. No need to complicate it unless you want to.

Similar Threads

  1. Which Zone System book?
    By Sammy_4293 in forum Darkroom: Film, Processing & Printing
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 27-Dec-2005, 09:54
  2. Shooting Zone System or not-------Majority--Non Ma
    By Raymond Bleesz in forum Darkroom: Film, Processing & Printing
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 21-Oct-2005, 14:07
  3. zone system target?
    By Bruce Watson in forum Style & Technique
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 18-Mar-2004, 08:54
  4. Zone System: Zone 7 or Zone 8 for Highlight Testing
    By William Marderness in forum Style & Technique
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 14-Feb-2000, 10:50
  5. zone system
    By dileep prakash in forum Style & Technique
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 2-Aug-1999, 08:48

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •