40x60" prints from B&W negs: drum scanner, printer advice?

[JoelBelmont]

I am a LF photographer of 7 years, looking to convert to digital printing from 4x5 B&W negs.

I am looking at purchasing a 9800, specifically so I can make large prints, 40x60 or so, as well as smaller prints.

Can anyone speak to the issue of drum scanners... it is more cost effective to purchase one, if I will be scanning possibly hundreds of negatives, or as technology progresses, is it better to have someone else drum scan them now and will drum scanners become more affordable any time soon? What is the price of an good drum scanner?

Also, can anyone reccomend some people that do drum scanning fairly affordably? I get the sense that B&W negs might need someone who is used to working with them, but that they might be easier to work with than color.

Also, I own a cheap scanner (4870 photo)... what size prints would that comfortably make without a loss in quality?

Thanks for your time.

~Joel Belmont

PS, attached are some sample images I would be printing

[Ted Harris]

Joel, if you are willing to wait for a high end scanner to come along at a price you are willing to pay then go the purchase route. You will find one in the $5000 range with some looking and maybe less. High end scanners, both drum and flatbed are not going to get appreciably less expensive on the new market anytime in the foreseeable future. Used prices have dropped somewhat over the past years as print shop have gone largely digital but I think they, too, have now leveled out. You will find 'buys' on eBay but they may cost you a great deal to bring in to service.

As far as your 4870, IMO it is ok for prints up to 8x10 or 11x14; others are perfectly satisfied with its scans to print much larger. It is all a question of taste and satisfaction levels. From a look at the images you posted I suspect you will not be satisfied with a 4870 for large prints. Having said that, you probably would be well served to have some scans done by some of the really competent professionals who offer scanning services. There are a number. One that I work closely with and who has done a lot of good work for me is Jon Lattimor of ejarts (www.ejarts.com). You might also be interested in one of our workshops.

[JW Dewdney]

Also, I own a cheap scanner (4870 photo)... what size prints would that comfortably make without a loss in quality?

Well, to be honest - in my opinion, it can't make prints in ANY size without loss of quality - compared to a top-flight drum like a Lino. While a good drum scanner CAN give you far, far higher resolution, the strongest advantage, IMO, is tonal.

[Bruce Watson]

Basically, what Ted and JW said.

If you are going to print that big, you are going to want a drum scan. You can shop around and look at the prices and run the numbers to decide the "send it out vs. inhouse" debate.

Basically, there is almost no development going on in the drum scanner marketplace anymore. It's about like LF lenses in that regard. AFAIK, There are only three companies still in the market: Aztek, ICG, and Screen. But there are excellent used drum scanners to be had for a fraction of their retail prices. It's really a question of economics, space (even the desktop models tend to be big, noisy, and hot), and yet more learning curves (but in truth all do-able if time comsuming).

I personally have scanned a lot of 5x4 Tri-X on my drum scanner. I'm just starting to offer large format drum scanning with an emphasis on negatives (both B&W and color). Website isn't up yet, but you can always send me an email if you are interested. Else, I'll continue to chime in if I can answer specific questions.

[JoelBelmont]

Thanks for your ideas. So 5k will get a competent drum scanner? Is there a noticable difference between a 5k and a 30k drum scanner? Assuming there is nominal difference, could anyone suggest good models I could keep an eye out for on ebay or elsewhere?

Also, printing 40x60", what would be the best/optimal file size/specs? Quality is my primary concern.

Thanks,
~Joel Belmont

[Gordon Moat]

Take a look at http://genesis-equipment.com

They handle a great deal of used and new high end scanning gear, both drum and flatbed. The cost analysis is basically take the cost per scan you would incur, then multiply by the number of scans done in three years time. If you find that number is close to $10k, then maybe you want to buy your own high end scanner, either used or new.

Is there a particular reason for choosing an Epson printer? If you really are going to be doing hundreds of prints, you might want to approach it more as a business adventure, rather than a truly expensive hobby. You might want to compare to wide format HP and Canon printers, or go beyond that to even better commercial gear like Mutoh, Roland, Seiko, better HP, ColorSpan, et al.

Hundreds of scans, and hundreds of large prints sure sounds like a business. You might want to get a few issues of The Big Picture, which is a publication dedicated to wide printing. They also have a website at http://www.bigpicture.net

Cost per square foot is an issue with wide printing, something which that Epson 9800 might not be the best choice. Epson is the most widely marketed inkjet system, but I encourage you to compare to other systems. You might also want to look into this as offering a service, and maybe scanning too, that you can sell to other photographers. While it would be cool to have high end gear just for your own usage, unless you have money to burn it can be nice to know you balance the expenses on the gear. Best of luck.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio
http://www.allgstudio.com

[Ed Richards]

Great shots, BTW. Are you successfully selling these as large prints? If so, you should be making more the cost of a good drum scan ($160) from the first print from each negative. In that case, unless your time is worth nothing, get the negatives scanned professionally. Even the folks who run their own drum scanners will probably concede that you are going to need a LOT of time to get good at it, plus even more time to be a mechanic to keep it running, because even one repair can cost more than the scanner if you have done by a service company. (These are big suckers - you pay to have a tech come to you, you do not schlep them back in for service very easily.)

If you are not already selling these big prints and generating a sizable cash flow, and money matters to you, it would seem to make more sense to start small, getting drum scans of a few negatives, have a pro lab make prints, and sell those prints to make sure you can get the cash flow. If money does not matter to you, then unless you really need to feed the inner garage mechanic geek, spending your time drum scanning seems like a poor substitute for almost anything else. There is a reason those scans cost so much money - it is a pain to do them.:-)

[JoelBelmont]

In regards to the 9800... I need prints that are 40x60 and gallery quality. Doesn't have to be the most magnificent print ever seen... but something that comes close to the quality of a silver print (not comparing, but just to give some sense of a standard... or perhaps I could just say a standard gallery quality print). I get the sense that the 9800 would do that adequately. Any other opinions on this printer and quality?

In regards to drum scanning... yes, as I start piecing it together, it would only be viable to own a drum scanner, printer, etc either as a business or as a sort of co-op with maybe four other photographers in this area (near aspen, CO). It is good advice to start small and see how it goes... I just need to start printing exhibitions, so when I contemplate 20 large prints, and the printer would be paid off by print 35, cost effectiveness of how to start is an issue.

Can anyone reccomend someone in CO with a drum scanner, who is either affordable or is willing to rent it by the day and get me started? I probably need to scan 50-60 images, so again it is the economics of it.

I'm not all for having a ton of equipment, but I am interested in the point at which it is more viable to simply own the gear.

Thanks for your help.

~Joel Belmont

[Doug Dolde]

I posted this somewhere else here but it bears repeating. I have only had 4x5 transparencies done but they are easily worth the price.

http://www.jaincotech.com

These guys do volume scanning on Imacon 949s. They run four of them. You have to call them for a quote (ask for Guatam Pai) but for me they quoted $14 each for 2050 dpi x 16 bit scans of 4x5. They include dust spotting in this price. Add $2.50 per DVD burned.

[JoelBelmont]

What is the effecitve print quality difference between a 949 scan and a drum scan, when printed at 40x60"? Do the 949's do better than 2050 dpi?

Thanks for the info.