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Thread: I think I am in love...

  1. #21

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    Re: I think I am in love...

    Quote Originally Posted by jim kitchen
    Dear Group,

    Out of curiosity...

    What makes Pyrocat-HD so great and, or any Pyro developer, for that matter?

    Is it because it produces smoother tones, less grain, or is it just an exquisite elixir for a specific type of film?

    I guess I should try it for myself and find out...

    jim k

    First, in order to prevent this from becoming another divisive thread about the comparison of different pyro developers, I am going to lump them together and treat them as one, with the one exception of the color of the stain as it impacts compensation with VC silver papers.

    There are several reasons why many people prefer staining developers.

    1. Most of the popular staining developers, including Diaxactol, PMK, Pyrocat-HD, and WD2D+ are high acutance developers, at least when used at the right dilution. That is, they create very enhanced adjacency effects which increases apparent sharpness. Some non-staining developers (FX-2 for example) are also high acutance developers, but the tanning you get with pyro developers hardens the gelatin and encourages more precise development, which further enhances sharpness. Howard Bond, not an advocate of staining developers, did an article in PhotoTechniques a couple of years back, and even he concluded that the pyro developers he tested gave sharper results with some films than non-staining developers.

    2. The stain masks the grain and gives a smoother, less grainy look that you get with other high acutance developers. For example, PMK and Pyrocat-HD are every bit as sharp as Rodinal, when used correctly of course, but the appearance of grain is much finer because of the stain.

    3. The stain is proportional to silver density and is therefore greatest in the highlights. This results in a compensation effect with VC silver papers. I won't go into the mechanics of this, but you can find good explanations for this in both Gordon Hutcings' The Book of Pyro and in my article on pyro developers at www.unblinkingeye.com. Some people like the compensation, others don't, but as a rule I believe it is desirable when exposing negatives in very high contrast scenes. As a rule formulas that give a brown stain (PMK, Rollo Pyro) give less compensation with VC papers than yellow/green stain formulas (Pyrocat-HD, Diaxactol).

    4. Stain is also very desirable with processes that require negatives of high CI since the stain adds contrast for both AZO 2 and for alternative processes.

    5. Most of the staining developers have long shelf life and are also very convenient to use. They come in concentrated stock solutions which last for months or even years, and are diluted for use. This assures consistent results. Staining developer are also highly efficient in their use of reducers, which makes them much more economical than most other developers, especially those that require a lot of sulfite, D76 for example.

    6. One disadvantage of staining developers is that the stain makes it more difficult to use sensitometry. This is not a great problem with graded silver papers, but with VC papers the application of sensitometry can be quite complicated. Lack of precision in the use of BTZS has been one of the reasons some BTZS users have avoided staining developers. However, as a BTZS proponent who uses only graded silver papers (AZO) and alternative processes I have not found any problem in obtaining precise results with BTZS and stained negatives.

    Staining developers are not elixirs, or magic bullets, and the difference in results between them and other acutance formulas are not all that great, as a general rule. Unfortunately there are many myths out there about the properties of staining developers and it is sometime hard for a novice to sort fact from fiction. However, for persons who know exactly what they want in a developer staining developers offers some specific advantages that may be of some interest.

    Sandy King
    Last edited by sanking; 26-Jul-2006 at 10:42.

  2. #22

    Re: I think I am in love...

    How do these pyro's like pmk work for scanning compared to developers like xtol?

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking
    First, in order to prevent this from becoming another divisive thread about the comparison of different pyro developers, I am going to lump them together and treat them as one, with the one exception of the color of the stain as it impacts compensation with VC silver papers.

    There are several reasons why many people prefer staining developers.

    1. Most of the popular staining developers, including Diaxactol, PMK, Pyrocat-HD, and WD2D+ are high acutance developers, at least when used at the right dilution. That is, they create very enhanced adjacency effects which increases apparent sharpness. Some non-staining developers (FX-2 for example) are also high acutance developers, but the tanning you get with pyro developers hardens the gelatin and encourages more precise development, which further enhances sharpness. Howard Bond, not an advocate of staining developers, did an article in PhotoTechniques a couple of years back, and even he concluded that the pyro developers he tested gave sharper results with some films than non-staining developers.

    2. The stain masks the grain and gives a smoother, less grainy look that you get with other high acutance developers. For example, PMK and Pyrocat-HD are every bit as sharp as Rodinal, when used correctly of course, but the appearance of grain is much finer because of the stain.

    3. The stain is proportional to silver density and is therefore greatest in the highlights. This results in a compensation effect with VC silver papers. Some people like the compensation, others don't, but as a rule I believe it is desirable when exposing negatives in very high contrast scenes. As a rule formulas that give a brown stain (PMK, Rollo Pyro) give less compensation with VC papers than yellow/green stain formulas (Pyrocat-HD, Diaxactol).

    4. Stain is also very desirable with processes that require negatives of high CI since the stain adds contrast for both AZO 2 and for alternative processes.

    5. Most of the staining developers have long shelf life and are also very convenient to use. They come in concentrated stock solutions which last for months or even years, and are diluted for use. This assures consistent results. Staining developer are also highly efficient in their use of reducers, which makes them much more economical than most other developers, especially those that require a lot of sulfite, D76 for example.

    6. One disadvantage of staining developers is that the stain makes it more difficult to use sensitometry. This is not a great problem with graded silver papers, but with VC papers the application of sensitometry can be quite complicated. Lack of precision in the use of BTZS has been one of the reasons some BTZS users have avoided staining developers. However, as a BTZS proponent who uses only graded silver papers (AZO) and alternative processes I have not found any problem in obtaining precise results with BTZS and stained negatives.

    Staining developers are not elixirs, or magic bullets, and the difference in results between them and other acutance formulas are not all that great, as a general rule. Unfortunately there are many myths out there about the properties of staining developers and it is sometime hard for a novice to sort fact from fiction. However, for persons who know exactly what they want in a developer staining developers offers some specific advantages that may be of some interest.

    Sandy King

  3. #23

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    Re: I think I am in love...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Strobel
    How do these pyro's like pmk work for scanning compared to developers like xtol?

    I have personally scanned a lot of PMK and Pyrocat-HD negatives. They are much smoother in terms of grain appearance than scanned D76 and HC110 negatives of the same format. Whether you see this on the print depends on how much you enlarge.

    A friend of mine who regulary prints up to 40X50" from 8X10 negatives has done a lot of comparision between a pyrocatechin developer (very similar but not same as Pyrocat-HD) and Xtol, and he tells me that the results are so close one could not tell them apart. I must confess this is anecdotal information since I have not personally compared Xtol with any of the staining developers.

    In scanning the dye mask of the stain minimizes the appearance of silver grain. Also, if you scan a stained negative in RGB it is possible that one of the layers will give better tonal rendition.

    Sandy
    Last edited by sanking; 26-Jul-2006 at 11:28.

  4. #24

    Re: I think I am in love...

    The only reason I'm not using Pyrocat HD now is that I found that sometimes the stain color gave me problems with VC printing and it seemed that the first kits I got varied. The stain was not consistent from film to film and sometimes not even with the same film. So some VC prints might look like they had been filtered at exposure of the film in a way that was not attractive. It took me a while to see this during the six months I used Pyrocat to the exclusion of Xtol.

    This is not a criticism of Pyrocat HD at all, its a truly excellent developer. It was just easier for me to standardize on Xtol since I got great results and no stain to cause trouble in VC printing. Xtol was and is consistent from package to package. I'm pretty sure that if I mixed Pyrocat HD from scratch with good chemicals and figured out how to strip the stain I'd be perfectly happy to use it from here on out. Both those things should be easy enough.

    Sandy, do you have any comments about those two issues (mixing for consistency and stripping the stain)?
    Last edited by Henry Ambrose; 26-Jul-2006 at 19:20.

  5. #25

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    Re: I think I am in love...

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Ambrose
    The only reason I'm not using Pyrocat HD now is that I found that sometimes the stain color gave me problems with VC printing and it seemed that the first kits I got varied. The stain was not consistent from film to film and sometimes not even with the same film. So some VC prints might look like they had been filtered at exposure of the film in a way that was not attractive. It took me a while to see this during the six months I used Pyrocat to the exclusion of Xtol.

    This is not a criticism of Pyrocat HD at all, its a truly excellent developer. It was just easier for me to standardize on Xtol since I got great results and no stain to cause trouble in VC printing. Xtol was and is consistent from package to package. I'm pretty sure that if I mixed Pyrocat HD from scratch with good chemicals and figured out how to strip the stain I'd be perfectly happy to use it from here on out. Both those things should be easy enough.

    Sandy, do you have any comments about those two issues (mixing for consistency and stripping the stain)?
    Henry,

    If you mix from scratch and use fresh chemicals and distilled water to mix the stock solution you control consistency of the developer. I would also recommend distilled water for the working solution to anyone having trouble with any pyro developer since both pyrogallol and pyrocatechin are very sensitive to water problems.

    As for consistency with the kit form, I am very optimistic that the liquid kits with Part A mixed in propylene glycol now being distributed by Photogrphers' Formulary will prove to be very consistent, with a shelf life of years. And mixing in glycol instead of water adds only pennies to the cost.

    Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do about stain variation with different films. This just comes with the territory with all pyro staining developers. There is no staining developer I am aware of that gives the same color and intensity of stain with all films.

    Pyrocatechin is highly sensitive to sulfite so you can easily kill the stain of Pyrocat-HD by simply adding more sulfite. A liter of working solution of Pyrocat-HD, diluted 1:1:100, contains about 0.1g of sulfite, released in water from the sodium metabisulfite in the stock solution. If you were to increase this amount to somewhere between 5.0g - 10.0g of sulfite per liter of working you would completely kill the stain. You could achieve this by increasing the amount of sodium metabisulfite in the stock solution, or by just adding about one-half to one teaspoonful of sulfite directly to a liter of working solution. If you chose to add sulfite be consistent with the amount you add because the energy of the developer will increase as you add sulfite. You will have to experiment with exactly how much sulfite is needed to kill the stain, but from past experiments I know that it is not very much.

    If you strip the stain you will still have a very high acutance developer, but with a different look. Probably something more like Neofin or FX-1 than the present Pyrocat-HD.

    Sandy
    Last edited by sanking; 26-Jul-2006 at 20:55.

  6. #26

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    Re: I think I am in love...

    Sandy, which ULF sheet films have you found best to work when contact printed on AZO, using the Pyro HD formula? Also, I purchase my Pyro HD in liquid form from PF - they carry one in glycol and the other does not mention glycol - which one do you now recommend? So, many choices....

  7. #27

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    Re: I think I am in love...

    Quote Originally Posted by scott_6029
    Sandy, which ULF sheet films have you found best to work when contact printed on AZO, using the Pyro HD formula? Also, I purchase my Pyro HD in liquid form from PF - they carry one in glycol and the other does not mention glycol - which one do you now recommend? So, many choices....
    Scott,

    What AZO are you using? If you are using AZO 2 you need a film that can be developed to a very high CI because this paper needs a very contrasty film. You might be able to get away with any available film if shooting in normal and high contrast scenes, but for low contrast scenes and AZO 2 I would recommend: FP4+, TMAX-400 and Efke PL 100. With AZO 3 you can use any film that gives good results with VC silver papers. Course, what films are available in ULF at any given time is hard to predict and anticipate because of market conditins.

    PF is currently selling both water and glycol kits of Pyrocat-HD. Both give identical results but the glycol based kit has greater stability so if you don't anticipate using up the kit in about six months I would recommend the glycol one for sure.

    Sandy

  8. #28

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    Re: I think I am in love...

    Quote Originally Posted by jim kitchen
    If PYRO is better, then XTOL will be toast.
    Pyrocat is toast with real butter.

  9. #29

    Re: I think I am in love...

    No comments on the tanning developers. I am a Xtol user in 4x5 at the 1:3 dilution and have been for some years now. I've never had a problem even with the older single liters packs. My stock solutions usually last a year and I find that the color changes indicating it's going bad.

    I did not read the whole post in depth but caught the fact that you are looking for speed with your changing to TMY and developer to Xtol. As I know, Xtol usually gives about a 2/3 stop increase in speed for a solvent developer while maintaining fine grain. Dilution increases speed. Your choices to find real speed are obviously in speed enhancing high definition developers, Crawley's being some preferred choices. Most all HD developers are compensating developers providing longer tonal scales. If you are contacting printing maybe FX2 or in your case TFX2 would be a choice to try; If the results are not to your liking, they may be different enough to use for a particular look. FX2 is also a choice developer to be used for stand or semi-stand developing giving increased adjacency effects; I have no idea about Jobo results with this developer.

  10. #30

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    Re: I think I am in love...

    Quote Originally Posted by John Berry
    Pyrocat is toast with real butter.

    John,

    I don't know which Pyrocat you're using, but Pat Gainer's Pyrocat MC makes Pyrocat HD completely obsolete. If you haven't tried that version, you're in for a pleasant surprise. I don't know why anyone would continue to use Pyrocat HD.

    Jay

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