Pyrocat-HD No Stain

[photocurio]

I compounded my first batch of Pyrocat-HD last week. My test sheet of 7x17 film (EFKE 100), came out very thin, and with no stain at all. It looked exactly like what I would have expected if the developer were formulated without the Pyrocatechol. Has anyone else had this problem?

I bought my pyro from artcraft chemicals. I noticed that it had a particularly strong and unpleasant smell - quite choking when weighing it out. It was in caked yellow form in the jar. It is a detergent type smell, niether sweet like decomposed developer, nor sulfurous.

I was thinking that I might not be able to use Pyrocat-HD because even in working solution the smell is noticably unpleasent.

So, given that my neg came out with no stain and my pyro has a terrible smell, is it possible that I have a bad batch of pyro? Is pyrochatechol supposed to smell that bad?

[sanking]

I compounded my first batch of Pyrocat-HD last week. My test sheet of 7x17 film (EFKE 100), came out very thin, and with no stain at all. It looked exactly like what I would have expected if the developer were formulated without the Pyrocatechol. Has anyone else had this problem?

I bought my pyro from artcraft chemicals. I noticed that it had a particularly strong and unpleasant smell - quite choking when weighing it out. It was in caked yellow form in the jar. It is a detergent type smell, niether sweet like decomposed developer, nor sulfurous.

I was thinking that I might not be able to use Pyrocat-HD because even in working solution the smell is noticably unpleasent.

So, given that my neg came out with no stain and my pyro has a terrible smell, is it possible that I have a bad batch of pyro? Is pyrochatechol supposed to smell that bad?

Hi Photocurio,

From your description it sounds to me like the pyrocatechin was indeed bad. I purchase my pyrocatechin from Artcraft and when fresh it is quite white, or just slighlty off-white, and has a strong sweet smell. I have never seen it in cake form with the detergent smell and color that you describe.

As for the color, when pyrocatechin in powder form goes bad it oxidizes and turns brown. However, it has fairly good shelf life so it does not go bad for several years. I have on hand a bottle purchased from Artcraft over six months ago and the chemical is still very white, with a strong sweet smell.

I believe you should contact Mike about this as something sounds quite wrong.

Sandy

[SAShruby]

Well then I will ask my question. Film is JandC Pro 100.
I worked with two methods. Semistand and stand development.

With semi I used brush technique as follows:
Exposure was a low light scenery.
Pyrocat-HD 2:2:100 at 68 for 8 minutes.
2 minutes brush
3 minutes stand
1 minute brush
2 minutes stand

No brown stain. Actualy for azo I had to expose only for 12 seconds to get acceptable results.


With stand I used technique as follows:
Exposure was a low light scenery.
Pyrocat-HD 1:1:200 at 68 for 27 minutes.
2 minutes rolling slow agitation
12 minutes stand
1 minute slow agitation
12 minutes stand

Uneven Stain (more on the edges than in the middle, probable cause slow agitation between stands), but brownish stain. I had to expose Azo for 60 seconds to get acceptable results.

Also, I am using Catechol instead of Pyrocatechin.
Any suggestions?

[Jay DeFehr]

Hi Peter.

There seems to be a lot of variation in the terminology we use to describe agitation technique. I would call your first example reduced agitation, which is a kind of umbrella term for non-specific agitation less than the standard 5 sec/30sec, or 10sec/min. I would call your second example semi-stand, which refers to development with initial agitation, and agitation at the halfway point of development only.

Regarding the differences in stain formation, I would guess that there is indeed stain present in your first example, but it is closely bound to the silver image, and not readily apparent. The obvious and uneven stain, and long printing time in your second example suggest general stain, and too little agitation. You might try adjusting the ratio of A:B stocks in your working solution (more A than B), and increasing agitation intervals. Good luck.

Jay

[SAShruby]

Thanks Jay,

So it may be helpful to re-cap the termilology of agitation techniques then:

1. Stand (No agitation)
2. Semi-stand
3. Reduced agitation
4. Normal agitation
5. Constant agitation

Did I forget any? Also, I do not wanna mess the explanations here so I ask very honorable and skilled people to fill-out the description of these agitation techniques. It might be a good article for LF website as well. So let's hear knowledgeable people and try to put some artilce for LF website about agitation techniques then.

[steve simmons]

I have always been a fan of tray development. You can develop several sheets simultaneously for different times. There is an article describing my tray developing procedure on the View Camera web site in the Free Article section.

steve simmons

[SAShruby]

And one correction,
my supplier told me he sold me last batch of pyrocatechin. So, my first look tonite would be what is the color of my pyrocatechin?

As far as I remember it is light brown and it is not a powder but little chunks.

[sanking]

Thanks Jay,

So it may be helpful to re-cap the termilology of agitation techniques then:

1. Stand (No agitation)
2. Semi-stand
3. Reduced agitation
4. Normal agitation
5. Constant agitation

Did I forget any? Also, I do not wanna mess the explanations here so I ask very honorable and skilled people to fill-out the description of these agitation techniques. It might be a good article for LF website as well. So let's hear knowledgeable people and try to put some artilce for LF website about agitation techniques then.

My terminology is as follows.

1. Rotary. Continuous agitation in Jobo or in BTZS type tubes.
2. Nomal agitation. In tanks agitation for about 1.5 minutes at the begining and thereafter every 30-60 seconds, or for sheet film in trays with constant shuffle agitation.
3. Minimal agitation. Agitatin for about 1.5 minutes at the beginning and thereafter every two or three minutes.
4. Extreme Minimal agitation. Agitation for about 1.5 minutes at the beginning and thereafter at the 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 points of total develoment time.
5. Semi-stand. Agitation for about 1.5 minuts at the beginning and thereafter only once at the 1/2 point of time.
6. Stand. Agitatiobn for about 1.5 minutes at the beginning and thereafter none.


When using any of the reduced agitation procedures I recommend very vigorous agitation at the beginning and and each of the subsequent steps. Gentle agitation with these procedures can give unevent development.

Many people, Stever Sherman included who published an article in View Camera on the subject, have used Pyrocat-HD in very dilute working solutions, say 1.5:1:150 and gotten good even development. I personally prefer minimal and extreme minimal agitation, which for me are a good compromise in that you get very good adjacency effects with a low risk of uneven development.\

About the stain. Pyrocat-HD gives a brown stain that may look almost neutral in tone when viewed by itself. However, if you hold a Pyrcoat-HD negative next to one developed in a non-stiaing developer the difference is very obvious.

Sandy

[Jay DeFehr]

Hi Peter.

I also meant to say that catechol and pyrocatechin are two names for the same chemical, and that the appearance of yours is one normal condition. Regarding agitation terminology, I break it down this way:

Stand= no agitation after initial agitation.

Semi-stand= one agitation period after initial agitation, at the halfway point of development.

Reduced agitation= anything less than standard/normal agitation as described by Kodak/Ilford, including stand and semi-stand.

Standard/normal agitation= 5sec/30sec (Kodak), or 10sec/min (Ilford)

Continuous/rotary= continuous agitation by whatever means

Good luck.

Jay

[Donald Qualls]

Back to the top of the thread (I seemed to have missed the start on this one).

You see no stain with your eye -- that means, mostly, that you have no *general* stain, i.e. no stain fog. The only ways I'm aware of to accurately assess whether you have imagewise stain (which, by its nature, is intermingled with the silver image) are to either compare densitometer readings in white or red light against those in blue or UV, do the same with red vs. blue channels of a color scan, or bleach the silver image (say, with Farmer's Reducer) and examine the negative for a residual non-silver image.

If you have only a white-light densitomer, it may still be possible to evaluate if you have imagewise stain, by developing negatives to the same white-light density in your Pyrocat-HD and a non-staining developer like D-76, and comparing the printed densities (stain would make a less dense print with other factors identical, because it "looks" denser in the blue and green light to which paper is sensitive than in white light).

I'd suggest trying to verify if you have the useful kind of stain before trying too hard to find out why your Pyrocat-HD isn't staining...