View Poll Results: Is an ULF camera a good way to enter into Large Format?

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  • YES, go for it!

    25 35.21%
  • NO, you're in for a big mistake.

    46 64.79%
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Thread: Starting LF Photography with ULF Camera?

  1. #21

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    Re: Starting LF Photography with ULF Camera?

    Alec, your getting some great advise from some reaally seasoned pros... I will add a few other considerations....

    To best answer the format question, you should start in reverse, ask yourself what is the end product you plan to produce.... Prints? If so, what size? If a smaller format will produce equal quality prints, then do you still want 11x14?

    Then move onto 11x14 limiations....

    Color or B&W. If its color, forget it.... What little might still be available sure won't be for long.

    Lenses? If you only want a couple, 11x14 is OK, otherwise, move to 8x10.

    Do you want movements? Which is part of the benefits of LF. If so, forget 11x14.

    Do you want to scan the film? Very few 11x14 film scanners and the ones that do exist are VERY expensive. B&W contact prints, well, 11x14 is an awesome format.

    As pointed out earlier.... lots of DOF in your shots, if so, forget 11x14...(format gains are diminished by aperture diffraction) Which is the real reason 4x5 is the Golden format.

    Weight? Do you plan to haul this gear around or use it in a studio? If you haul it, beware of weight issues, not easy to deal with...

    Re sale value?

    replacement parts? Accessories available for camera?

    Subject matter, is it still? If you are used to shooting 1/30th on MF, and need a given amount of DOF, then each format jump will cost you 2 full stops of shutter speed. So 1/30th on MF = 1 second exposure on 11x14. Using ISO 100 film, comparing to f8 aperture on MF film, exposure times....

    Direct sun, EV 14 = f 64 1/8 second exposure

    Overcast day EV 11 = 1 seconds

    sunset/sunrise EV 9 = 4 seconds.

    If you are forced to use ND center filters to prevent light fall off, this will cost you another 2 stops of shutter speed. If you focus closer then infinity, this can cost you another stop or two. So 10 - 30 second exposures are not out of the question. What about filters for the B&W film, more shutter speed lost...

    So consider how "static" your subjects are and reciprocity failures of the film. What good is a blury 11x14 image vs. a sharp 4x5 image due to subject not beign fully coopeerative with extensive long exposure times?


    Wind, the bigger the format, the more camera shake.... unlike MF cameras, LF cameras bellows acts as sails in the wind.

    FL of lenses, the bigger the format, the longer the fl lens required for same composure. A 90mm lens on a MF = 540mm lens on 11x14. Long lenses are much more vulnerable to shake, the same in any format.


    Do you usually shoot with long lenses? If so, the longest lens available for 11x14 is slightly over normal, or 80mm for MF.

    If there is no deal breakers in there, jump right in, you will love it!

  2. #22

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    Re: Starting LF Photography with ULF Camera?

    Shuh, let him get his 11x14 outfit. Chances are we'll be able to scoop it up for a bargain after a few experiments...

    I admire the ambition and it is a worthy goal. But making the slight detour to learn on 4x5 may actually be faster and less expensive that plowing through with a 30 lb 11x14 antique camera.

  3. #23

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    Re: Starting LF Photography with ULF Camera?

    What model 11x14 are you looking at? The old Scovils are actually pretty light and compact. Studio cameras OTOH were built for use on heavy cast iron stands---not a good idea if you want to leave your studio(and make sure it comes with the stand.) Phillips I think made a nifty lightwieght model. A Deardorff Field (not studio) would also be a good choice. My B&J was really a nice camera but I just couldn't pack it easily--big ol' knobs would reach out there and grab branches. If you get an 11x14 make sure it comes with at least one holder--like I said the cost of 11x14 holders are a killer. You might get by with two holders(I do on my 12x20) but three is IMHO an ideal number to start out with no matter what format. I have an old Ries tripod, a grandfather to the current A-100 that holds my 8x10 and 12x20 and is as sturdy at the Rock of Girbralter---it would be a good pick for an 11x14 field camera.

    Enjoy that 11x14!
    "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority"---EB White

  4. #24
    Scott Rosenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Starting LF Photography with ULF Camera?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Petronio
    Shuh, let him get his 11x14 outfit. Chances are we'll be able to scoop it up for a bargain after a few experiments....
    frank, that's exactly what i was thinking. sadly, the experience will likely turn alec off to LF photography altogether. FRANKly, i'm stunned that there's anyone encouraging a newb to 'cut his teeth' on 11x14.

  5. #25
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    Re: Starting LF Photography with ULF Camera?

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    Color or B&W. If its color, forget it.... What little might still be available sure won't be for long.
    Color in ultra-large formats is a special order item at this point. If you want it, you get together with enough of your like-minded friends to come up with an order for $10,000 worth of film, give or take. It will be quite expensive on a per-sheet basis - figure maybe $20/sheet at an absolute minimum.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    Lenses? If you only want a couple, 11x14 is OK, otherwise, move to 8x10.
    Obviously the selection isn't so wide as it is for smaller formats, but there are many lenses that cover 11x14, including some that are affordable and quite compact.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    Do you want movements? Which is part of the benefits of LF. If so, forget 11x14.
    Most 11x14 cameras offer a range of movements similar or identical to what you'll find on smaller models of the same design - which is to say, plenty for general field applications.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    Do you want to scan the film? Very few 11x14 film scanners and the ones that do exist are VERY expensive.
    Depends whether you intend to make mural-sized enlargements, in which case you have a very demanding special application. If what you want is to print, say, 2x-3x enlargements via inkjet, the Microtek 9800XL with transparency adapter is quite usable. $1269.95 at B&H. Not exactly cheap, but hardly stratospheric given the overall expense of playing in the format.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    As pointed out earlier.... lots of DOF in your shots, if so, forget 11x14...
    UL formats do very well with big, distant landscapes. It can be quite difficult to get a pan-focus picture if you like near-far compositions and the subject configuration can't be handled with a simple tilt or swing. So you take a different kind of picture when the main subject is close by - that's part of the distinctive character of the medium.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    Which is the real reason 4x5 is the Golden format.
    There's no disputing taste. From my point of view, 4x5 is the least interesting, and my least favorite, of all the many formats I've tinkered with over the years. As the saying goes, YMMV.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    Re sale value?
    As best I can tell, not systematically better or worse than for equipment in other formats.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    replacement parts? Accessories available for camera?
    Not systematically different from smaller models of the same type. That is, it can be hard to find odd parts like extension beds for classic cameras, while it's easy to get parts for cameras still in production. It's easy to have lensboards made for any wooden camera, and virtually any wooden camera can still be repaired today.

    So would I recommend starting with 11x14? No. I started with 8x10, which was fabulous. In my experience 11x14 is disproportionately more difficult to handle than the linear scale factor would imply. The size and weight place a huge logistical burden on every little thing you want to do, and the cost and effort invested in the inevitable mistakes as you travel the learning curve can be quite discouraging too. If you think you have a taste for the big negative, by all means don't feel that you must start with 4x5 - just think about 8x10 as a much more practical starting point.
    Last edited by Oren Grad; 23-Jun-2006 at 19:34.

  6. #26

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    Re: Starting LF Photography with ULF Camera?

    I think what you're dealing with is bulk, logistics and expense. As the format grows in size, so do those three considerations. In light of that, I'd suggest you attend one of the ULF workshops in Utah. The opportunity to look through an 11x14 GG and actually work with a 'big boy' will either cinch the deal or cause you to consider other options...but to discourage you from pursuing the format of your choice? Naw!
    "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority"---EB White

  7. #27

    Re: Starting LF Photography with ULF Camera?

    Alec, you said "Given what I've read, I believe there is a 99.8% chance I will be enthralled with it. "

    Okay, you've already got the mindset to get into LF, but I can't speak abou ULF because I didn't go that far. An LFer would make that kind of statement, whereas a small or medium format guy would not have used a decimal point. It's a more precise and technical game.
    DG

  8. #28
    alec4444's Avatar
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    Re: Starting LF Photography with ULF Camera?

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    Color or B&W. If its color, forget it.... What little might still be available sure won't be for long.
    Oh, B&W for sure. I print color every once in a while to keep my skills current, but that's about where it ends. Something about developing my own film that's very satisfying.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    Lenses? If you only want a couple, 11x14 is OK, otherwise, move to 8x10.
    I've only got two for my medium format (somewhat due to cost) and I've been pretty happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    Do you want movements? Which is part of the benefits of LF. If so, forget 11x14.
    YES, I do want movements and is one of the reasons why I think I'd like the large format system. I love architectural photography and landscapes. I realize that larger cameras pose a problem because the image circle has to be huge, but I didn't think it was a big problem. Perhaps it is? Another response by Oren seems to think this shouldn't be an issue. Not that I'm going to side with someone because they say yes, but clearly this could be a sticking point.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    Do you want to scan the film? Very few 11x14 film scanners and the ones that do exist are VERY expensive. B&W contact prints, well, 11x14 is an awesome format.
    God no.....thank you. I'd get a digital camera if that were the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    As pointed out earlier.... lots of DOF in your shots, if so, forget 11x14...(format gains are diminished by aperture diffraction) Which is the real reason 4x5 is the Golden format.
    If I'm to be honest with myself, yes. I typically shoot my medium format at f/16 or f/32, even with wide angle lenses. I'm not adverse to some blur, but my style typically has none.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    Weight? Do you plan to haul this gear around or use it in a studio? If you haul it, beware of weight issues, not easy to deal with...
    A consideration, but not an impasse. I'm in New York City, and we've got good public transportation. If I go elsewhere, I could rent a car. If I've got a burning desire to shoot something that's out of the way, I'm stubborn enough to figure out some way of getting to it. I might never shoot it again, but I'll get there once.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    Re sale value?
    No, you can't have my camera. None of you! Back, BACK!

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    replacement parts? Accessories available for camera?
    Richard Ritter.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    Subject matter, is it still?
    Typically, yes. Landscape & Architecture.

    Quote Originally Posted by bglick
    Do you usually shoot with long lenses?
    Nope. Wide & Normal. I've got an ultra-wide (40mm) for my 6x6 Rollei that's a blast.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    These are great considerations. Someone should make a list of these and others and create some sort of web application where people can answer the questions and based on some point value get an answer to LF and ULF needs. It's just a bit of Javascript, though I'm sure the contentious part will be assigning the various points!

    With the dwindling poll numbers above, I'm going to take a course in LF photography at ICP and see what I think. They have 4x5s that students can take home and play with. Over a few days, I'm sure to shoot a ton of frames, and if I like it, and I still think 11x14 is the right format, I'm going to jump in with both feet. I think contact prints are amazing, I really want to do some alternative processes with it (hello albumen prints!), and even if it's too much for travel I live in a helluva city for photography. I'm sure I'm not gonna want to carry this thing around when I get old, so now is the right time.

    Having no formal darkroom, I'm going to have to try developing 4x5 sheets in a tray in my bathroom in complete darkness. If I can get that to work, I have no worries about 11x14. I've got to give that desensitizer stuff a whirl and try developing by inspection. Outside of developing, I can do contact prints at a rental darkroom, or alternative process prints in the sun.

    --A

  9. #29
    alec4444's Avatar
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    Re: Starting LF Photography with ULF Camera?

    John Kasaian, do they still have those ULF workshops in Utah? I read somewhere that this year's was cancelled (or they did it in Scotland or somehting) and that they are typically VERY expensive. Like "new lens" expensive.

    --A

  10. #30

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    Re: Starting LF Photography with ULF Camera?

    Me > Lenses? If you only want a couple, 11x14 is OK, otherwise, move to 8x10.

    Oren > Obviously the selection isn't so wide as it is for smaller formats, but there are many lenses that cover 11x14, including some that are affordable and quite compact.

    If you want modern lenses, only a few fl's will cover 11x14... so you might have a normal and wide-normal lens. I have 10 lenses for my 8x10, ranging from, super wide, wide, normal, long, and telephoto long. I would say that's a substantial difference.



    Me > Do you want movements? Which is part of the benefits of LF. If so, forget 11x14.

    Oren > Most 11x14 cameras offer a range of movements similar or identical to what you'll find on smaller models of the same design - which is to say, plenty for general field applications.

    I was not referring to camera movements, I was referring to the image circles which are fairly maxed out on 11x14, except maybe the new Schneider ULF lenses.


    Me > Which is the real reason 4x5 is the Golden format.

    Oren > There's no disputing taste. From my point of view, 4x5 is the least interesting, and my least favorite, of all the many formats I've tinkered with over the years. As the saying goes, YMMV.

    Sorry, I am missing the YMMV....but regardless of your taste or my taste, 4x5 is the Golden format as proven by sales that outpace all other LF's by 30:1. And this is for a good reason, as the optics become the limiting factor due to diffraction, lack of movement potential due to maxed out image circles, size and weight, less sharpness, etc. etc.. I was not referring to my personal taste. Most newbies to LF do not realize the reason the ULF were created many years because the recording media, (plates, paper, early film) was so poor compared to today, they had very limited if any enlargement factor. As film progressed through the years and could be enlarged more and more, these formats served little purpose.

    Now this does not prevent people from loving the format, as quite often people use guns too big, ATV's too big, etc. The hobby part of photography leaves these options open for anyone of course.... others like collecting gear, specially large gear, then occasinaly use it. But I think its important newbies understand the limitations with going bigger and bigger.


    Me > Re sale value?

    Oren > As best I can tell, not systematically better or worse than for equipment in other formats.


    11x14 film is more vulnerable to extinction, long before 8x10 and then 4x5. What is re sale value of cameras which has limited or NO film available? Some people would consider this a valid issue.



    Me > replacement parts? Accessories available for camera?

    Oren > Not systematically different from smaller models of the same type. That is, it can be hard to find odd parts like extension beds for classic cameras, while it's easy to get parts for cameras still in production. It's easy to have lensboards made for any wooden camera, and virtually any wooden camera can still be repaired today.


    Accessories for smaller formats... machined lens hoods, reflex viewers, rail extensions, film holders of several variety and reasonable prices, special lens boards such as recessed, ground glass protectors, bellows variety, rail extensions, fresnels, etc., etc...

    It's hard to beleive you can argue this last one... not to mention, most 4x5/8x10 camera makers are still in business, and can benefit from the accesories that maker offers. There is a few 11x14 makers today, but usualy small companies with limited accesories. Of course, my comments are generalized, as the OP may not purcahase the older 30 lb camera he found. This thread also is read by others in the future who may be comtemplating the same....

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