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Thread: problems photographing city buildings, trains, etc

  1. #11

    Join Date
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    problems photographing city buildings, trains, etc


    A lot of the time, police have said “you can't photograph..." and not "it
    is illegal to photograph...”. I wonder if that means anything.
    If it's not illegal, you can ... Obviously, you need to exercise some
    judgment with a cop (or even a psycho security guard). Even if you're
    right and he's wrong, he's likely to win a street confrontation.

    They were extremely serious when it came to the “transportation
    system”, though.
    Ask them to cite a law. Nicely, of course. A fair number of
    similar incidents have been reported, and with the exception of proposed
    laws in New Jersey, I've not seen anyone cite an actual law that forbids
    photography of transit systems. Again, it's hardly as if I've researched
    every law in every city and every state.

  2. #12

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    problems photographing city buildings, trains, etc


    They questioned me at length, ran my I.D. through a criminal background
    check, took numerous personal information down about me, including my place
    of employment, employment address and phone number there.
    Although they can request this, they have no legal right to demand it.
    California's “stop and identify” law was voided by the U.S.
    Supreme Court in Kolender v. Lawson, 461 U.S. 352 (1983), and this was
    specifically mentioned in
    <cite> Hiibel</cite>. I doubt that they have any legal basis for a stop,
    either (what crime do they suspect you are committing?), but it
    probably is not worth pushing the issue&mdash;they'll end up detaining you
    even longer, and if they get mad, they'll arrest you for &ldquo;resisting,
    delaying, or obstructing&rdquo; a peace officer, even though they have no
    legal basis for doing so.

    Sometimes citing the law and acting as if you know what you are doing (all
    while remaining friendly, which can be tough ...) does the job. Sometimes
    it doesn't, though. Common sense must prevail; it's not worth pushing it
    to the point of getting arrested. I'd probably note their badge numbers
    and file a complaint in any event. Don't hold your breath expecting
    anything to come of it, though ... A mention to the local newspaper might
    have more effect.

    It's distressing that we have to put up with this nonsense ...
    unfortunately, unless you know the law cold (and sometimes even if you do),
    you don't have much choice.

  3. #13

    problems photographing city buildings, trains, etc

    You know what I find so incredibly stupid when "authorities" get so whacked about tripods and photography. Any terrorist who wishes to photograph anything in this country can and will with a cell phone camera. No one would be the wiser.

    Terrorists aren't going to make a public display of themselves photographing anything the way we do with LF gear.

    On top of that, terrorist can Google the planet and download satellite images of US infrustructure.

    Frankly, I'd wish Homeland Security would start doing background checks on every white male who rents a Rider truck instead of picking on people of "color."

    The only Tripod Law I know of is in Washington DC. You need a tripod permit from the US Capitol Police for photographing on the US Capitol grounds and around the White House. You need a tripod permit from the US Parks Service for photographing around the Monuments on The Mall.

    I like the idea of carrying copies of the actual law to hand out to the "authorities." That'd twist their panties. HA!

  4. #14
    grumpy & miserable Joseph O'Neil's Avatar
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    problems photographing city buildings, trains, etc

    I'm no lawyer, and rights seem to vary a bit from place to place, but a couple of random thoughts;

    - tripods draw attention, regardless if you have the right or not to be there, regardless of wha tyou are shooting, regardless of where or when you are shooting. Not just Police either - I've had a coupel of times homeless peopel threaten me with violence. NO, I was not shooting them at all, they ame up to me - one guy claimed I was shooting gamma rays at him through the back of the camera or some such stuff.
    Anyhow, the point is, even on private property, tripods attract attention. No, it's not fair, and no, I don't how you are always supposed to get around it.
    That I do, and ahve done, is when urban shooting anymore, I often leave my tripod at home. You see, I learned the hard way, shooting in malls is no-go, as they are provate property. Same for other areas you might think are public but are private. But go to that same mall, sit down on a bench, and setup your 4x5 field camera beside you, amazing how much you can shoot and never draw attention.

    Yes, before the flame wars start, yees, we should NOT hav to work that way, but it works for me. It's amazing what you can substitute for tripod when you have too.

    - research what you are shooting. I try to be aware of those companies that supply military contracts, because anything shot near or in the direction of such a factory or office is likely to draw attention.

    - the reawson that photography of bridges, rail road stations, and any other "vulneralble" public site draws such attention can be blamed on the German Army, back in the 1930's. German agents, travelling with their families about Europe and elsewhere took "travel photos" of many installations in the background, with thier family in the foreground. Intelligence agencies, rightly or wrongly, have never forgotten that lesson since;

    - indsutrial and commercial espionage is a real threat for many companies. Never mind that fact a corrupted employee withe single USB data key can do ten thousand more times damage than a single LF shooter out on the sidewalk, outside the building, the point is, some of these companies are paranoid about loosing industrial secrects, so you may be targeted. Again, I am NOT saying such action are correect or right, just hat it happens.

    Kinda like the homeless guy threatening me because I was shooitng gamma rays all over hsi street -t hat don't make much sense either, but at what point do you stand up for your rights, and at what point do you pay attention to caution even int eh face of stupididity?

    I dunno what the answer is. Does seem to me that many of the freedoms we take from granted are a hair's breath away from illusion, and I am not sure things will get any better come the near future.

    silly mode = on

    Maybe we should all form a new group - "Photographers For Freedom" - get business cards with a picture of osama bin laden's face covered by a big, red "X" on them. Have street posters like that too. Tell the cops, and anybody who wil listen that we are preserving the "face of democracy before the terrorist blow it all up with suitcase nukes." Play up the patriotism card. Either that, ro we all join Hell's Angels,a dn wear colors while shooting.

    *sigh* Naw, I guess not either.

    Look, I hear all where you are comming from, I've been there too. Dunno the answer. But IMO, it's not just the law, but John Q Public too. Dunno how many times i ahve setup somewhere - out of the way I thought, only to have some guy with a little digital camera stand directly in front of me, thinking 'Hey, that's a great shot, I want one too" or other such problems. It ain't easy at times, but it's worth it.
    joe
    eta gosha maaba, aaniish gaa zhiwebiziyin ?

  5. #15
    Terence
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
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    problems photographing city buildings, trains, etc

    Tripod ordinances are very real. In NYC you can apply for a permit, free of charge, from the mayor's office. The pdf for the permit is at:
    http://home.nyc.gov/html/film/pdf/stillpermit.pdf

    The permit is free, and you can leave the location and time of shooting fairly open ended. I have gotten these off and on depending on how high-profile the area is I intend to photograph. I have only ever had to produce it twice and both times it was immediately accepted as holy writ by the officer.

    The NYCTA (subway system) has a "no tripods" rule which they enforce vigorously. Some uninformed cops also try to act like the photography ban went into effect, which it did not.

    Bridges run by NYC have signs posted saying, "No photography," but I have yet to be stopped when photographing on them from their walkways. There are certainly enough security cameras on the bridges for someone to know what I am doing, assuming the cameras are real and they actually pay someone to watch them.

    The PATH train, a subway between NYC and NJ, has a photography ban which they srongly enforce, and for which permits are hard to get (an understatement).

    The Mall in Washington D.C. is also off limits without a permit from the Capitol Police or the Parks Police. Last time I got one (about 6 years ago) the office was in the Capitol Building.

    That said, in NYC I've only had a problem at the federal park below the Verrazano Bridge on Staten Island. And that was by Parks Police. NYC cops have been quite reasonable, actually. Some have actually taken an interest in the cameras. Others have suggested some great locations for unusual views of the city.

    I wish the same could be said for police at bridges along the Hackensack, Passaic and Delaware Rivers where I have been harassed numerous times. When I have the time, and the officer actually thinks he's right, I'll let them drag me all the way to the police station. A few mentions of wrongful arrest/imprisonment to a senior officer normally straightens out the situation. That's happened three times so far.

    A few years ago a "No tripods" sign appeared on the Golden Gate, but was apparently removed shortly thereafter (and after my vacation, of course). Of course, using a tripod ON a bouncing bridge isn't too helpful anyway, and given the density of pedestrians on the bridge, probably is inconsiderate to others anyway.

    Some military facilites have signs at their perimeter fences saying "Photography of this facility is banned by CFR blah blah blah." I would assume these refer to an actual federal ordinance in the Code of Federal Regulations, but I never looked them up. Places I have seen these include early warning radar installations on Cape Cod, White Sands Missile Test Range, and the submarine base in Bangor, Wash.

    Typically, as was stated above, if you are public property, and not impeding traffic or pedestrians, you are free to photograph at will. Always ask the officer, respectfully, what law you are breaking. If they can't cite anything, chances are they won't push much further. If an officer accuses you of "loitering" (a very broad term) and you do not move along, they will then threaten you with "disobeying a lawful order." A common tactic used against vagrants, etc and becoming more popular for use against photographers. If you have the time and inclination, the police will usually back down when they see how much paperwork you're going to cause them for a questionable (at best) case.

    For "rent-a-cops" on public property, tell them to go take a leap. The one exception to this I've found is security services hired to "protect" federal courts in Boston and Newark. These folks have a little clout to back them up, but the rules above still apply.

  6. #16

    problems photographing city buildings, trains, etc

    Oh, here's my funny "stopped by the authorities" story.

    I was doing a portfolio of pinhole photography in Washington DC. Usually I never used a tripod, so no one was the wiser.

    But once I was making pictures of decorative figures on a small bridge on 16th St NW (far from anything important) with a tripod.

    I was there for about 45 minutes when I saw two cop cars heading my way with lights on. To get ready, I picked up my Polaroid 4x5 test shots and my business card.

    When the police office asked what I was doing, I handed him the test shots of the figures and my business card.

    He liked what he saw and asked if I did weddings. HA!

  7. #17

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    Mar 2005
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    problems photographing city buildings, trains, etc

    I was told that I could not photograph a 20 car ferry across the Mississippi because of the Homeland Security. Fortunately the ferry guys were laid back and did not seem to care that I had finished and boarded the ferry before they told me. I do some national security law, and this level of idiocy is pretty typical. They do not seem to be able to tell the important stuff from the trivial. Like worrying about bird flu when the regular flu kills 30,000 or so each year, but we still do not have a working immunization program. Uh oh, wonder if they have banned photographing birds?

  8. #18

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    problems photographing city buildings, trains, etc

    Call or better yet write the local U.S. Marshall's service and ask for a list of what kind of facilities are off limits for photography. do the same with the Chief''s office for the Phoenix police or county Sherriff's office departments too.. It would not be a bad idea to contact the Office for Homeland Security in Washingtion, D.C as well and request the same list. See if you can get the list in writing with a supervisors name and phone number on it. if a cop says it is illegal ask him to call his supervisor. Be patient and polite, and not overly defensive.

    Make copies you can hand off to the beat cops and security guards and laminate a couple of copies to carry with you.

  9. #19

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    problems photographing city buildings, trains, etc

    "The Mall in Washington D.C. is also off limits without a permit from the Capitol Police or the Parks Police. Last time I got one (about 6 years ago) the office was in the Capitol Building. "

    I went to DC three years ago (before I typed it, I thought it was last year), and I asked at the ranger station by the Lincoln Memorial about tripods.

    The gentleman there told me that there was really no issue with it, as long as I didn't occupy walkways or make a nuisance of myself. Pleased, I returned to my hotel room and took a good nap.

    The next morning, started bright and early to avoid the other tourists. First stop, the Wall... Where the honour guard gave me holy hell about having a tripod. Eventually, he relented, but it was onyl after repeatedly pointing out that other, "real," rangers told me it was AOK.

    Usually, I just try to be friendly to people. I don't think I'd try qouting laws and regulations at them unless things REALY got out of hand.

  10. #20

    problems photographing city buildings, trains, etc

    gfen

    you're very lucky

    if your tripod is small, you don't take all day, you look like a tourist, and you ask a ranger ahead of time, they MAY say yes

    since 911 things are much more strick, especially if you start setting up an 8x10 camera

    if you LOOK commercial, yes setting up a 4x5 or 8x10 camera looks commercial, the ranger will ask for a commercial film permit.

    the Department of Interior will charge you 25 buck for an exact time and location permit, applied for days in advance

    the Wall is a different story

    very touchy there 'cause of the emotions

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