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Thread: shooting fine art

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    shooting fine art

    Hello All,
    I’ve browsed the archives until I’m more confused than ever.

    I’m hoping a couple of you, that have years of experience shooting Fine Art, can advise.

    I’m an Artist; I paint mostly large wildlife, rainforest and reef paintings that edge on realism. I paint detail, by large I mean mural size, 4’x5’ being my smallest and a 10’x24’ being my current largest on canvas.

    With the new technology I can offer my clients full size reproductions. It’s a wonderful new avenue for me, but stumping me with surprising new problems! I live in the Caribbean, yes few drawbacks there except for the availability of resources, extreme shipping cost and the quality photographers have all gone digital! The problems before 9-11 were difficult enough. Shipping rolled canvases to the USA to be shot was a costly headache but an option (along the way hoping they were not damaged). since 9-11 that is mostly out of the question, and now my even-larger paintings (too large to roll) are in demand. Touch wood, that is not a complaint, I enjoy the challenge, though now I am faced with shooting my own work. An old dog learning yet another new trick, which I know I am eventually capable of, but it does take time away from what I get paid to do, so I need to be efficient in my learning and in the tools I buy. I’ve ordered books from Amazon and hope they cover the basics of “how to” shoot and lighting etc., but the mail is slow and I’m impatient… more my clients are. I need expert advice.

    In the past I had my paintings professionally photographed to a 4x5 transparency. Back then my re-prints were at max - a 4’x5’ Giclee on Canvas, at 400dpi. I’m now looking at extreme enlargements of large detailed paintings, how far can I push the 4x5 format before it disintegrates? My 10’x24’ oil painting is in panels, that I can shoot individually, providing I can re-create lighting consistency between the shots. For an example: Can I shoot a 6’x 10’ painting and reproduce that to a 6’x10’ size with a 4x5 transparency, at a minimum of 300dpi, or do I need to jump to the 8x10 format?

    I’ve looked through the forum for a recommended equipment list, from the camera up, for shooting artwork, and have gleaned info on lenses but not much else on this subject, at least that I can understand. I will be shooting the work indoors unless it is a true on location mural. I do have the option of shooting my paintings outdoors if it will produce more accurate color?

    Going by what I’ve read here in the Forum…
    I’m currently looking at a buying a Tachihara 4x5 or if advised an 8x10 with a 4x5 reducer when needed. Are there big advantages to this system? The cost is almost double.
    210mm G Claron lens, Kodak EPN Film, Kodak Q14 chart…
    I’m still clueless as to the rest, light meter, lights (not tungsten or fluorescents, but what?) Polarizing filters, Polaroid film type 54, and the Polaroid holder 545 (will that work with this camera?) I need advice down to the tripod…

    This is a costly new bite for me to chew on; in both time spent and working within a tight budget. I do want to cut time/cost corners where it is possible. I’m considering buying the camera new because of the shipping cost and insurance. (Fed-Ex is well over $100 each way and nothing else in insurable, I don’t want to be testing and returning items). I see less risk ordering used for the other equipment, am I wrong?

    Truly what I don’t know would take too much space to even ask. I’m hopping some of you won’t mind recommending a basic equipment list. Any suggestions, on quality reliable sources for buying used, is also appreciated. I’m certain I will need things I am not aware of. I’ve had basic experience with my 35mm and that’s it.

    This is a long and involved request. I appreciate any professional advice offered.
    If it is not appropriate to answer this long of inquiry on the Forum, I can be e-mailed at savannasgallery@yahoo.com

    Thank You,
    Savanna

  2. #2
    Moderator Ralph Barker's Avatar
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    shooting fine art

    Welcome to the forum, Savanna. It sounds like you have an interesting adventure in front of you.

    There are several people on the forum who produce large color prints from digital scans, and many far more familiar with the process than I. Until they see your post, and have an opportunity to respond, let me get you started with a few thoughts.

    It seems to me that you may want to determine a couple of things prior to selecting a format and camera gear. First, is how and where to get the color film developed. Your local labs may not be able to process large format. If not, you'll need to explore mailing the exposed film to the mainland for processing, or setting up your own processing, probably using a Jobo system. Second, I'd suggest determining your printer before selecting a format, too. Talk to them about the optimum input resolution required for the print sizes you're looking at, and then use that info to determine the drum-scan resolution you'll need. Assuming a fairly fine-grained film, like Fuji Provia or Astia, my guess would be that you'll run out of additional detail somewhere between 4,000 and 6,000 DPI. The real experts here can probably give you a better answer, though. As such, you may need to go to 8x10 to get the resolution you need for finely-detailed originals.

    If you go for 8x10, you'll want to look at one for which a 4x5 reducing back is easily available. There, you might consider a used Toyo 810G, which pop up on eBay from time to time. The 810G is a monorail design, which should be fine for the studio-style work you'll be doing. The 4x5 reducing back will enable you to use both 4x5 film when you wish, and will accommodate the 4x5 Polaroid back (545i or 545-pro), which will be handy for testing.

    Lighting wise, my suggestion would be to go with large-ish studio strobes, probably in soft boxes to even out the light. Personally, I've found WhiteLightning (http://www.white-lightning.com/) strobes to be good value for the money, and use their X3200s for my main lights. Note that with a view camera, you can do multiple "pops" on the strobes to get the light level you need. You'll want at least two lights, along with the accessories.

    For a light meter, I like the Sekonic line (e.g. their L-558 or similar earlier models), but any good flash meter with incident capability would suffice.

    The optimum tripod choice will be determined by the camera size and weight. I like the Bogen 3046 legs, which have a center-strut system for better stability. I'd also suggest the use of a secondary support bar, clamped between the monorail and the tripod, or a second, lighter tripod to support the front of the rail.

  3. #3
    Resident Heretic Bruce Watson's Avatar
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    shooting fine art

    I'd love to see some of your work. But... back to the topic at hand.

    For context, I'm a drum scanner operator.

    The problem with digital printing of very large print sizes comes down to file size. The limitation is primarily from existing image editors like Photoshop, and existing OSes (PC, Mac). The reality is that you can't easily work with files larger than about 2.0Gb. Until we get 64bit OSes and image editors, you are stuck with that limit.

    The implication here is that going to 10x8 film isn't going to get you that much over sticking with 5x4. If I were to scan a 5x4 original at 5000ppi 8bit (sticking with chromes), it would result in a file size of:

    (5 in x 5000ppi)(4 in x 5000ppi)(3 [RGB])(1 byte [IOW 8bits]) = 1.5GB

    You can see that you eventhough 10x8 film has 4x the area as 5x4 film, you aren't going to be able to scan much larger than 5x4 film. Such is the laws of physics.

    So... I'd stick with 5x4 film, and accept that you are going to have to print in sections.

    If you have a first class drum scan from someone who understands how to get the maximum out of a drum scanner and has a drum scanner that will deliver (for you, that means something sharper than a Tango - something like an Aztek Premier, one of the new ICGs, a high end ScanMate, or an Optronics ColorGetter 3 Pro), and you are using a fine grained chrome film, I'm thinking you can probably print that up to a maximum of about 15x enlargement, or about 75 x 60 in (190 x 152 cm) You will of course have to make some prints and decide for yourself how much enlargement you can stand - print quality is something you'll have to judge for yourself.

    Now the problem becomes finding someone with a grand format printer that can make panels as large as you want.

    It's a formidable task you have set for yourself. It will take lots of your time. You've got plenty of learning curves to climb. The reproductions are going to cost a pile of money. But it's all doable if you really want to. Just make sure it's worth it to you.

    Bruce Watson

  4. #4

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    shooting fine art

    Check the prices of used digital scanning backs, such as Betterlight.

    The initial cost is high, but no need to scan.

  5. #5

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    shooting fine art

    Wow,
    I wasn’t expecting a reply on this for days, I was still searching the forum for info.

    I realize now I should have answered couple questions up front…
    I will fed-ex the film to L.A. to be processed and drum scanned. I’ve seen good reviews on www.aandi.com and picked their brains, I like their customer service so far.
    Other printers that I’ve used require my image to be on disk and scaled to size.
    I have a printer that can print up to 8’ wide to 14’ or more in length on canvas, and another that can print a Giclee on wood or aluminum up to a 4x8’ sheet panels which can then be pieced together to recreate the larger interior murals needed in resort hotels, restaurants and villas (which are my #1 clients). My 4th printer (sad one can't do it all) can re-create my oils digitally onto kiln-fired tile, so they can be used in-doors or out, in swimming pools, spas, baths, kitchen and barbeque/bar areas and exterior entry areas.

    One of the largest problems of any artwork in the tropics is humidity, sun and insects that eat at even the best conservation methods… I’m trying to overcome these issues and size has become my only snag this year. I can paint an original almost any size. These printers can now (in sections) match me, and resort owners won’t have to replace their faded artwork every10 years. The combination should work well for both of us. IF I can get over this hump.

    I’ve sent the 4x5 transparencies that I had to Aandi this week to be drum scanned onto a DVD to a max size for each image. Fingers crossed. They will also be doing a few traditional Giclees for me so I will see the print quality. I have years of experience with limited edition prints and Giclees, but always in the past had a pro shoot my work... I've watched, ha, that's my only experience. For what I've paid over the years for the shoot and shipping, the cost will quickly recovered.

    My web site is being revamped this week, to move gracefully (I hope) into this larger more focused pond, but I would be grateful for feedback when it is up and running.

    I’m happy to hear at least for the moment the 4x5 may be sufficient.

    Thank you, I look forward to your replies.

    Savanna

  6. #6

    shooting fine art

    I suggest you look at this:
    http://chromatics.com/Serv-ArtCopy.htm

    They can scan up to 4x6 foot originals. I think you will get --much-- better reproductions this way than shooting film and scanning. The downside is that you will have to ship your originals.

    Chromatics can also print your reproductions in several different ways and archive your files for you for subsequent printing on demand. I've used them for years for film processing and they give great reliable service.

    I used to be "the guy in town" to do this kind of scanning and did work for museums and display companys that was often used over ten feet tall - I think up to sixteen feet! I was using a regular scanning camera and stitching the shots together to get enough resolution but Chromatic's machine is much superior. It is, in effect, a HUGE flatbed scanner.

    On the other hand, if you are looking for justification to buy a camera don't let me stand in your way! Get an 8x10!

  7. #7
    Geos
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    shooting fine art

    Since your art is static by nature, that is it doesn't move when photographed, why not shoot the items with a digital SLR camera, especially considering your remote location and the expense of Fedexing, developing, scanning and reshipping.

    Here is my recommendation: get a Canon 5d, a good lens (non zoom), and a heavy tripod that will allow the camera to be leveled. Then photograph the art mosaic-style. This means take as many images as you feel comfortable with (3 overlapping images in the vertical and 5 overlapping images in the horizontal for example, for a total of 15 images). Then take these images into a computer and either use Photoshop or panorama software to assemble the final art work. You can get some information at http://www.panavue.com.

    Although this is a more expensive alternative in the short term, the flexibility is greater. You can manually set the camera for white balance and exposure so that the color and details match what the art looks like regardless of where it is photographed and under what type of lighting. By mosaicing the image, the quality should be as good if not better than 4x5 scanned film. It will require care and thought to keep the camera parallel and at the same distance to the art during each image. Perhaps you could leave the camera stationary and have several places on the same wall to hang the image so that it could be repositioned prior to each shot. If you have a 35mm film camera, or even a simple digital camera, you could try this to see if it would work for you, prior to investing in a higher end digital camera.

  8. #8
    Dave Karp
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    shooting fine art

    We have at least one participant on the forum who does this for a living. He has chimed in on these topics before, so it would be helpful if he joins in.

    If you go the 4x5 or 8x10 route, I would recommend a monorail over the cameras you mentioned. They are designed for studio use, and you can get good used studio monorails used for a good price right now. The Toyo Ralph mentioned is a good candidate.

  9. #9
    Steven Nestler's Avatar
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    shooting fine art

    Savanna,

    For what it's worth, here are some observations;

    1. I see no advantage in your going 8X10 with a reducing back; there are many disadvantages.
    2. The advice you've been given about a monorail is good advice.
    3. I have a friend who provides the sort of services you need. Along with the other names you've been given, I would call Marc Sitkin at Digital Momentum. He's the best I've seen. http://digitalmomentum.com

    Good luck,
    Steven

  10. #10

    shooting fine art

    Hello Savanna.

    I am an artist that photographs my own and others work to about six feet sq.

    As far as equipment is concerned I find 5x4 the most useful for work to about 2 sq. mtr.
    For mural type sizes a 10 X 8 format is better but has the complications of limited film stock.

    In the past few years I have managed to copy all work using 5x4 with velvia 50 film which I use for all work be it in colour sepia or plain graphite.

    I process using the jobo Cpp2 which gives me total control over the final tone of the copy.

    So, as far as camera equipment is concerned you can get exellent results from the very basic 5X4 camera with a good firm support system. You should have no problems with a suitable lens, there are many good buys second hand. The lens I use most is a Sch.Apo Symmar 'L' 300mm but a 150mm will also cover most situations.

    Now, this is where I differ from most:

    I use ambient light only with reflectors. I am careful to choose the time of day and the conditions to suite. My choice is usually two or three hours each side of mid-day and a haze covered sky.
    The positionaing of the art work to the light is also important but as you are an artist you will
    be aware of this.

    Once you have made a few copies of art work on various supports your confidence will grow with a serendipitous buzz. Best wishes. Stan. L-B

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