Pyrocat-HD, 400Tmax, Jobo

[Bruce Watson]

I'd like to hear from anyone who is shooting 5x4 400Tmax, processing on Jobo using a 3010 drum, developing with Pryocat-HD.

How flexible is this combination? How well does it do N- and N+ development?

[Amund BLix Aaeng]

Here you can find everything you need to know: http://www.jandcphoto.com/index.asp?...n=Custom&ID=26

[Bruce Watson]

Here you can find everything you need to know: http://www.jandcphoto.com/index.asp?...n=Custom&ID=26

I've read it. Sadly, it doesn't tell me everything I need to know, otherwise I wouldn't be starting threads like this.

What I'm interested in is whether anyone is actually using this combination, and if they are, what kind of results they are getting.

For example, I've read that this combination has some problems with tonality with bright sunlit scenes with large SBR. I routinely work with sunlight, so this is interesting to me. Anyone want to comment?

[John Powers]

Bruce,

If you are willing to consider alternatives, I have been very pleased with Rollo Pyro which I believe is variation of PMK for Jobos, not sure there. I'm doing 8x10 and 7x17 T Max 400 in a CPP 2 Jobo. The 8x10 is developed in an Expert drum. I'm shooting pictures where the bright sunlight vs. shadows goes beyond a five stop range, such as dappled light coming through tree tops in wooded rocky shadow areas and bright sunlight on waterfalls next to shaded banks. Best results so far have come from over exposing one or two stops and underdeveloping by 10-20 percent.

Hope this is helpful.


John

[sanking]

I've read it. Sadly, it doesn't tell me everything I need to know, otherwise I wouldn't be starting threads like this.

What I'm interested in is whether anyone is actually using this combination, and if they are, what kind of results they are getting.

For example, I've read that this combination has some problems with tonality with bright sunlit scenes with large SBR. I routinely work with sunlight, so this is interesting to me. Anyone want to comment?

TMAX-400 film with Pyrocat-HD has been my main film/developer combination for many years and I have not had any problems at all with tonalities in bright sunlight scenes with high SBRs. TMAX-400 has a very long straight line curve and if you expose it correctly and develop for the right amount of time you should get a full range of tonalities with excellent separation in both the shadows and in the highlights. This film does not have as much latitude in develoment as do TXP, HP5+ or the JandC 400 film but precision is possible even with tray development, assuming one takes reasonable precautions to control temperature during development.

In my experience it is actually much more difficult to control highlight tonalities in the type of conditions you describe with TRI-X 320, which has a very long, up-flaring curve, than with TMAX-400. The use of a staining developer like offers the potential for highlight compensation with either film.

Most problems with TMAX-400 are due to over-develoment. Unlike TXP, HP5+ and JandC 400, which have a maximum potential CI of about .85-95, over-devlopment of TMAX-400 can result in approximate CI values of 1.2 and higher, which are virtually impossible to print with silver papers.

In any event

Sandy King

[Bruce Watson]

I'm shooting pictures where the bright sunlight vs. shadows goes beyond a five stop range, such as dappled light coming through tree tops in wooded rocky shadow areas and bright sunlight on waterfalls next to shaded banks. Best results so far have come from over exposing one or two stops and underdeveloping by 10-20 percent.

Interesting - this is the kind of subject I was thinking of. How do you find the tonality? Can you compare to the tonality you get from "conventional" films?

[sanking]

Interesting - this is the kind of subject I was thinking of. How do you find the tonality? Can you compare to the tonality you get from "conventional" films?

You appear to understand BTZS since you use the SBR terminology. Why not just run your own tests with TMY and the developer of choice? Regardless of what developer you use, tonal values in high SBR scenes are normally controlled by some degree of over-exposure and under-development. Choice of developer is a lot less important in these kind of situations than just getting exposure and development right.

Sandy King

[John Powers]

Interesting - this is the kind of subject I was thinking of. How do you find the tonality? Can you compare to the tonality you get from "conventional" films?

Bruce,

I am learning and experimenting. T Max 400 has been my primary film developed in Rollo Pyro for about three years, 6x7cm, then 4x5, 8x10 and in the last three months 7x17. The 7x17 camera came with some Ilford HP5+ that I have tried recently on the waterfall and shadow pictures. The tonal range there has also been wonderful. This of course is all subjective. What may be acceptable to me today, may not be for you. Experimentation is the only way you will know. I can only suggest.

The tonal limitation for me has been the printing paper rather than film or film developer. I’ve been using Kentmere VCFB since Kodak Polymax VCFB became unavailable. Michael Smith printed one of my T Max negatives on AZO at the APUG Conference. That negative was of dark rusty metal straps hanging in an abandoned greenhouse that had ice, snow and sun on the roof. Lots of sun, more than five stop spread. Not surprisingly AZO had a longer tonal range than Kentmere VCFB with a single filter. Platinum would be the same. However when I started split grade printing per Les McLean’s method (see his book “Creative Black & White Photography”) I got very acceptable results on the Kentmere. Again all is subjective.

For more of the shadow and dappled light history see http://www.apug.org/forums/showthrea...ht=rocks+roots
Here I got into some long exposures with the HP5+ up to 16 minutes including reciprocity and 3-6 minutes with T Max 400. I also purchased a Gossen Luna Pro SBC to obtain better low light readings than my Sekonic 508.

Again, hope this helps.

John

PS: If you try Rollo Pyro, I do not use the second tanning cycle after the fixer.

[Bruce Watson]

TMAX-400 film with Pyrocat-HD has been my main film/developer combination for many years and I have not had any problems at all with tonalities in bright sunlight scenes with high SBRs...
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Most problems with TMAX-400 are due to over-develoment. Unlike TXP, HP5+ and JandC 400, which have a maximum potential CI of about .85-95, over-devlopment of TMAX-400 can result in approximate CI values of 1.2 and higher, which are virtually impossible to print with silver papers.

Thanks for posting. I was hoping you would! Based on what you and others have said, I'm beginning to like this idea more and more.

I'm more concerned with how this combination will react to under-development. What I'm thinking of is high SBR with enough exposure to carry the shadow detail I want, then just enough development to get me a Zone VIII of around 1.0.

This is something I do with Tri-X now, because I'm scanning and this tests out to be optimum for my workflow. I'm thinking now that this might not be optimum for 400Tmax and Pyrocat-HD, because of the stain. There's already less silver in the negative with this combination, so perhaps there's less need to reduce density to reduce Callier Effect when scanning. What do you think?

In any case, I'm committed to some experimentation. I just ordered a box of 400Tmax, so I've got 50 sheets to burn...

[sanking]

[QUOTE=Bruce Watson]I'm more concerned with how this combination will react to under-development. What I'm thinking of is high SBR with enough exposure to carry the shadow detail I want, then just enough development to get me a Zone VIII of around 1.0.

This is something I do with Tri-X now, because I'm scanning and this tests out to be optimum for my workflow. I'm thinking now that this might not be optimum for 400Tmax and Pyrocat-HD, because of the stain. There's already less silver in the negative with this combination, so perhaps there's less need to reduce density to reduce Callier Effect when scanning. What do you think?

QUOTE]

I agree that if you are only developing to a Zone VIII density of around 1.0 the stain is not going to give you much of an advantage over a non-staining developer in terms of grain masking.

BTW, I live in South Carolina and have done a lot of photography of water falls in the conditions you describe. The light can be so extreme that I usually just avoid these scenes unless the day is cloudy or the scene is in shade. And that goes for any film, not just TMY.

However, if I were to expose negatives with Pyrocat-HD and TMY in these conditions of extreme contrast (SBR of 10 or more) my first inclination would be to use a very diluted version of Pyrocat-HD, say 1.5:1:200, and develop with reduced agitation procedures, say no more agitation cycles than two or three. Unlike TRI-X You will not lose a lot of EFS with TMY with under-development so an EFS of 200 or 300 should give you more than enough shadow detail. Assuming the low CI you want about 20-25 minutes of development with the reduced agitation should give good results with an SBR of 10

You could also try the same dilution (1.5:1:200) with rotary develoment in your Jobo. I have not specifically tested this but for a SBR of 10 I would suggest tests around 12-15minutes.

Sandy King