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Thread: Amateur vs Professional pricing issues

  1. #31

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    Amateur vs Professional pricing issues

    Richard, Please don't misunderstand me. Some of the greatest photographs I've ever seen have been made by photojournalist. The photos you just mentioned all had a compelling impact on society and most certainly helped define an era. And a pultizer is nothing to sneeze at. But I will disagree with the tone that's seeming to exude here, to place a "professional photographer" in another class as far as artistic ability or skill. Anyone who has sold a single print can no longer actually claim to be an amateur. Whether or not your working to a deadline for a wedding or a 5th Avenue advertising firm it is still a deadline and that is all it is. Now if you wanna measure it in dollar success I'm sure you will agree that a lot of luck and some good marketing will help anyone build a reputation/career and that's commendable in it's own right. But to use the title of "professional" as though it places ones skills above that of an amateur is simply untrue. Keep in mind the term amateur means one who does it for the love of it. I've seen countless times local photojournalists piss and moan about their assignment. Do they get the shot and make the deadline? Of course they do. Does that make them any more talented or at a higher level than the amateur who has been working all day on a composition? Because he's doing it for the love of it? Quite the contrary. I guess I just have a problem with someone using the term"amateur" to define someone of not being on the same level of skill as they. It just seems somewhat demeaning and unnecessary. Now this well may be acceptable and the norm in the world of million dollar ad campaigns . If that is such the case then you can chalk my response up to just not knowing. I've never worked in that field. I would much rather just use the term photographer and let the work speak for itself.

  2. #32
    Founder QT Luong's Avatar
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    Amateur vs Professional pricing issues

    Rather than the professional/amateur divide, I see as a more relevant divide that between two categories of photographers: those who photograph what they personally find interesting,
    those who photograph what they are asked to by a client (certainly trying to make it look interesting).



    As pointed out by Richard and Henry, in the second category, what matters the most is a track record of delivering, and no price pressure is going to change that except for some low-end jobs.



    In the first category, that includes a significant part of stock (but not all, as agencies often dictate specific subjects or styles) and all fine art, oversupply has and will continue to erode some people's ability to make a living the way they have done before. However, when it comes down to signing up with the more lucrative stock agencies, or getting into the gallery/museum circuit (key to higher prices), a track record still matters.

  3. #33
    Robert A. Zeichner's Avatar
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    Amateur vs Professional pricing issues

    "One of the most memorable photographs is Joe Rosenthal's shot of the flag raising on Iwo Jima. Joe was a professional, in the employ of Associated Press. Pulitzer 1945."

    An associate of mine was a photographers mate in the Navy during WWII and actually worked in the lab that processed Rosenthal's work. He showed me a stack of prints awhile back that had at least a handful of "alternate" exposures of that very scene. Eerie!

    Just an interesting side note, having little to do with the original question, but I just couldn't resist.

  4. #34

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    Amateur vs Professional pricing issues

    Richard,
    I looked at your more recent post with the emphasis on pricing, and the impact of those relying less on photo income. I said in my earlier post that I did not believe amateurs significantly cut into the market. That statement assumes to a degree that the client using the amateur did not value the service enough to pay what a professional would require. In other words, if the amateur hadn't agreed to do it for the low price, the client would have done it himself. I have done some of those "assignments" in the past. It also assumes that you are not considering "amateurs" who are trying to break in to professional photography, and ultimately fail to make it. All industries have a failure factor. I work in the real estate industry. When I worked as an agent-broker, this same issue was discussed. It is relatively easy to become licensed as an agent, and many people get licensed, selling one or two properties a year, if that. Do they cut into the business? Would it be better for those who work full-time and rely on their sales for a living if these part timers were not in the business. Of course they do, and it would be better if the part timers weren't cutting into the sales. But still, 90% of the sales are made by 10% of the agents, as the saying goes, so those who employ good business practices succeed. I think the situation is the same in the photography business. And those with exceptional photographic and business skills become rich and famous.

  5. #35

    Amateur vs Professional pricing issues

    This thread is introducing some thoughts about the differences between hobbyists and full time photographer 'pro's'...that I had not intended, but are still very interesting.

    One of the thoughts in this thread that irritated me the most was the idea that a hobbyists 'amateur' was much more passionately involved with the art and craft of photography than the professional. Yes, I admit my bias here because I am passionate about photography and will forever be a student of photography. I am forever learning and experimenting about composition, theme in work, and how the human eye and mind see and are influenced my images. My bias is borne by the knowledge that most of my competitors have always felt the same way.

    I recall so very well the time, early in my career, when in my senior year at Art Center, I was awarded the single student scholarship to attend the national meeting of ASMP (American Society of Magazine Photographers) at the Asilomar, CA retreat site near Carmel and Monterey.
    You had to be an ASMP member to get in. It was a Who's Who of powerful people in photography and the year was 1959 I think.

    There were about two hundred there, and it was a 'mind blowing' experience. The first night we all sat a circular tables that sat six or eight folks for dinner.. At my table were Ernst Haas, Philippe Halsman, and Dorothea Lange, then very elderly. Early in the dinner Ms. Lange asked me directly..."Richard,..why are you in photography". I was stunned at a direct question to me and stuttered.....I,...errr,...I guess it's because I find people interesting! She loudly shot back..."YOU'RE A LIAR"! I was stunned and the moment only broken when Halsman spoke up and said..." HEY Dorothea...give this guest a break. I've heard good things about this young man."
    The incident was over, but forever emblazoned in my mind. Ms. Lange was very senile at the time and had one of the great ego's of the wold. Lucky for me...Halsman shut her down, and she behaved for the rest of the meal.

    I got off topic a little but the ASMP conference was symbolic of what I have experienced in my career in terms of the passion by other photographers. When we met in the great hall to hear speakers and presentations, one of the last speakers, on the last day, was Herbert Kepler, then the editor of Popular Photography Magazine. who started to talk about cameras and lenses. He was literally booed off the stage by famous photographers standing up and yelling something like...."We don't want to hear about damned cameras, we want to talk about art, and meaning, and how we communicate to our audience and share images and ideas"!

    I don't want to start a debate about which group has more passion, but I have come to know over many years, that successful and famous photographers earned that status by having a passion for their chosen profession.

    Let's just stipulate that amateurs and professionals most likely are equally passionate about photography.

    Forever a student, albeit a senior citizen/photographer.

    Richard.

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