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Thread: Archival Inkjet Paper - Epson 4800-Black and White

  1. #21
    Kirk Gittings's Avatar
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    Archival Inkjet Paper - Epson 4800-Black and White

    Paul,
    Yes I did a year ago and rejected it. VFA takes more ink and more ink means a deeper black. It also has to do with profiles. The Imageprint profiles are simply better than the Epson ones. Imageprint mixes all the colors in such a way as to maximise nuetrality and dmax . It just works better than Epsons and Cones. I spent the summer testing my setup against the Art Institutes extensive Cone (both blacks) setup because I wanted to do some big prints and I could never get a better print on anything that matched my setup with VFA. So for my exhibit I settled on smaller prints.

    If you do your paper testing with VFA profiles on every mat paper regardless of what that paper is you can see the black potential because VFA accepts the most ink and therefore the profile lays down the most ink. The coating they use is proprietary and only used on EM and VFA. The base for VFA is bought from-shoot I can'i remember the name-and Epson dips it in their own coating. The claim that Epson makes about VFA having the best dmax is true. Nothing else gets there. Unfortunately it is a heavily textured paper and only goes up to 13x19. If it were larger I would do everything on it. I don't mind the textyure as I am not trying to mimic silver prints. I want an ink on art paper look, like a lithograph. But to me dmax and paper base is everything!!!!! When it comes to print richness.

    These Crane papers are getting there though. These may be a breakthrough
    Thanks,
    Kirk

    "Vocation to Solitude -- To deliver oneself up, to hand oneself over, entrust oneself completely to the silence of a wide landscape of woods and hills, or sea, or desert; to sit still while the sun comes up over the land and fills its silences with light." Thomas Merton

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  2. #22
    tim atherton's Avatar
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    Archival Inkjet Paper - Epson 4800-Black and White

    I've just got some of the new Crane Paper to test as well - looks promising.

    A couple of issues - most of the papers with OBA's (optical brighteners) will warm somewhat in the first part of their life until they stabilise - usually closer in colour to similar non OBA papers. Secondly, there are some different ways manufacturers concoct and use OBA's, but in my (very unscientific) tests I have come to the conclusion that especially with B&W prints, the OBA's are often what can give an unpleasant tinge (metamerism) in certain lights - especially if you get a bit of tungsten and a bit of daylight (such as in a gallery near the windows...) - this often gives a rather unpleasant very slight magenta cast. This is even the case using all grey quad inks, without any colour in them such as the Imageprint RIP uses.

    So for my use I've started using non-OBA papers - which start of slightly warmer in the first place (I used to like Photo Rag, but I find it susceptible to this metamerism problem because of the OBA's - and Hahnemuhle has never come through with their once promised non-OBA photo rag).

    I ran a whole bunch of tests (and also used the following site as a guide, because he lists so many papers) and came up with a few papers that fit the bill for me :
    (Clayton Jones Paperchase
    http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn5.htm )

    I've come to really like Arches Infinity - crisp and with nice blacks. It does tend to suck up the inks when it uses lots of back in say the shadows, so you need to be able to control the ink laydown - it also has a slightly unique look because of the way Arches makes the paper/coating

    A close second is Dourian Art by Red River - very close to Photo Rag, but has "limited" OBA's and a better black. A very nice paper 2-Sided - seems to have a small
    amount of OBA's but it is very close to the Arches - great DMax, slightly cooler (and double sided which means you can re-use duff prints for
    testing) - a very nice paper and a bit cheaper than Photo Rag

    After that, some of the papers by Innova - they tend to have a bit more texture than some:

    Innova Soft Textured Art - not bad, a bit more texture than some

    Innova Cold Pressed Art - nice if it wasn't soooo textured

    (The Innova Photo Smooth Cotton is also pretty nice, despite the OBA's -
    however it isn't as objectionable as most to me)

    lastly Entrada Natural (not too bad - used to have big flaking issues, okay DMax,
    but not the worlds greatest and has a "flop" I just don't like...).

    (I've also tested Ultrasmooth and its sibling PremierArt Hot Pressed - liked them at first, but compared to some of the other papers, they just don't give as good shadows and blacks)

    BTW I've given up on the Imageprint RIP - I've tried several different versions on different machines over a number of years and just hate it.

    For B&W I'm getting far better results using the Quadtone RIP. Using Ultrachrome inks, I'm also substituting MIS Ebony black for the Epson black.
    You'd be amazed how small the demand is for pictures of trees... - Fred Astaire to Audrey Hepburn

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  3. #23

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    Archival Inkjet Paper - Epson 4800-Black and White

    Don't listen to Wilhelm. His tests are terrible. He uses 30% as acceptable fading but humans can actually percieve 5%. If he tests a product that fades 29% and one that fades 1%, to him that's the same thing. (You can tell that I've been talking to Jon Cone.)

    Other than this forum, another good sorce for all kinds of printer related info is inkjetart.com , and they are a serious paper merchant as well.

  4. #24

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    Archival Inkjet Paper - Epson 4800-Black and White

    "He uses 30% as acceptable fading but humans can actually percieve 5%. If he tests a product that fades 29% and one that fades 1%, to him that's the same thing. "

    actually, that's incorrect

    "You can tell that I've been talking to Jon Cone."

    Ha - Cone's so full of it - might want to take it with a handful of salt

  5. #25
    Kirk Gittings's Avatar
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    Archival Inkjet Paper - Epson 4800-Black and White

    The other part of the tests that I have done. I have talked in other threads about printing silver and inkjet side by side for my current retrospective and chose the inkjets. I also printed duplicates of many images with Cone inks on Hahnemule Photo Rag. By themselves the Cone prints looked great but beside the VFA/UC prints they were lacking so none of the Piezography/HPR prints made it in either.

    By themselves many paper/ink/Rip systems look great. I have had the unique opportunity to run many systems side by side in one of the great fascilities in the country and hang prints from various systems on the wall together. I got samples from dozens of paper maunfacturers and printed the same image on each. If it didn't have a great black I didn't bother with it after the initial test. I have not tested UC3 inksets and I tried the QTR two years ago and was not impressed especially then. I could do allot more with IP. Maybe QTR is worth trying again. So there is more testing to be done. Always.
    Thanks,
    Kirk

    "Vocation to Solitude -- To deliver oneself up, to hand oneself over, entrust oneself completely to the silence of a wide landscape of woods and hills, or sea, or desert; to sit still while the sun comes up over the land and fills its silences with light." Thomas Merton

    KIRK GITTINGS
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  6. #26

    Archival Inkjet Paper - Epson 4800-Black and White

    Off topic but what the heck, since you guys have tested all these papers maybe you can help. I have the suspicion that some of these papers for ink jet printing might be good for pt/pd as well. Are any of these papers thick (at least comparable to double weight fiber paper) and glossy (once again I mean "glossy" like an air dried fiber print)?

    I got conned into buying an ink jet print on e bay that I thought was fiber paper, I wont comment on the print, but the paper looks nice if it wasnt because it feels so thin. It even feels thinner than a single weight sheet of azo. So, any opinions would be appreciated.

  7. #27
    tim atherton's Avatar
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    Archival Inkjet Paper - Epson 4800-Black and White

    BTW - "what's gsm"

    grams per meter:

    http://www.inkjetart.com/weight.html
    You'd be amazed how small the demand is for pictures of trees... - Fred Astaire to Audrey Hepburn

    www.photo-muse.blogspot.com blog

  8. #28

    Archival Inkjet Paper - Epson 4800-Black and White

    Grams per square meter.

  9. #29

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    Archival Inkjet Paper - Epson 4800-Black and White

    Jorge,

    Kokopelli Photo Gloss 260 weight is a decent paper....not as thick as Photo rag 308. What weight would you need? The Kokopelli Gloss is a microporous quick drying paper. I'm not sure how well that would take your pt/pd coatings. I don't use glossy papers much, but this one has been OK for inkjet.

  10. #30

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    Archival Inkjet Paper - Epson 4800-Black and White

    Jorge

    Order some sample packs. None of the papers I have fondled feel like the print I bought from you. Thick they are but they have a funky tooth to them. Especially the Hahnnemule. they feel plain old weird. The photo rag 308 feels a lot like sand paper compared to cranes or arches. the Moab papers might have some promise. the sample packs are not cheap though that is the down side.

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