Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: Any feedback? PhotoRag Luster/Satin papers????

  1. #1

    Any feedback? PhotoRag Luster/Satin papers????

    Anyone (that has seen prints) have any opinions on how close the matte Luster/Satin papers are coming to looking like traditional silver gelatin fiber? I shoot b&w and have been printing in the darkroom. I know crane has their "Silver Rag" coming out then there's Luster Rag and Photo Rag Satin. I'm really interested in any feedback. I have a 4800 coming on Monday and have high hopes for these type papers.

    Thanks
    Bob

  2. #2
    Kirk Gittings's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Albuquerque, Nuevo Mexico
    Posts
    9,864

    Any feedback? PhotoRag Luster/Satin papers????

    Bobby,

    In all sincerity, if what you are looking for is a traditional silver gelatin fiber print look you should print traditional silver gelatin fiber prints. It is possible to do prints in archival ink that rival silver in beauty but are beautiful in their own unique way. If you approach ink prints with the goal of trying to make them look like silver you will make ink prints that look like failed silver prints. Just like people who try and make archival ink look like pt/pd. I hope that makes some sense.

    Because of my relationship with Freestyle, I do some beta testing of new papers for manufacturers. We are on the cusp of some important breakthroughs in ink papers. The new Crane mat papers Museo II and Museo Max are very beautiful. They approach Epson Velvet Fine Art (the gold standard in dmax) in Dmax but have a smoother texture. I am looking forward to testing Silver Rag in the near future, it looks very promising.

    My own early efforts at making archival ink prints were aimed at matching my silver prints for my current exhibition. It was very frustrating until I put the silver prints away and thoroughly explored ink independently, as its own unique medium, striving to do the absolute best ink prints I could do. Months later, when doing a final edit for the show, we (with my assistant Jim Hunter) put the ink prints together with the silver for a comparison. In every case when I had both silver and ink of the same image I chose the ink print for the show. 2/3rds of the show were ink prints. Jim's opinion was more varied but he oftentimes agreed with my choice of the ink prints. That show led to me being nominated for the Eliot Porter Award.

    If you put the silver prints away and spend a year making the best archival ink prints you can make ink prints that really sing.
    Thanks,
    Kirk

    at age 73:
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep"

  3. #3

    Any feedback? PhotoRag Luster/Satin papers????

    Kirk, I understand completely what you are saying. My experience has been the following. I decided I would dedicate myself to darkroom printing because of my love for the fiber print. I started with photoshop and a digital camera and learned the program well. My quest was to try and bring what I learned digitally to the darkroom. I've been doing that. Recently I shot an image up at Lone Pine that I love. I inadvertantly scratched it! So, I scanned it and worked it up in photoshop thinking I'd output to lightjet neg and contact print. When I prinited the file, I fell in love with the beauty of this finished photograph. (Even though it's printed on premium semi-gloss) The photoshop control allowed me to take the photo to a level unachievable in the darkroom (at least with my current skills). In fact, I meticulously tried to emulate that print in the darkroom just for kicks and couldn't! (That's what I think you're talking about regarding trying to make one look like the other.) However, I thought if I could have the control and the look of silver gel wouldn't that be great! I called crane and talked to Jiles(spelling) about silver rag. He said he's been working on that paper for 2 years and that it looks very much like traditional fiber (I believe Portriga or Brovira???) I'm not sure which paper so don't hold me to that. Nonetheless, he said I'd be quite pleased when I saw the results. So, I'm sure you've been down this same path and I appreciate your recommendations. I do appreciate the beauty of the "new look" that HPR and Carbon Pigment Ink brings to the photo world. I think it's great. However, to my eyes when side by side with Silver Gel, I gravitate to the look of the Silver. I like the perfection I can achieve with photoshop vs darkroom, but, like so many others I'm sure, I wish I could apply that to my favorite paper. I believe that soon there will be a paper that will have qualities that will even surpass Silver Gel to my eyes. That's a day I look forward to with a smile. So, it's not "the look" per se that I'm interested in. It's the alluring beauty that I'm instinctually attracted to with silver gelatin. Take a print done on semi-gloss and put it side by side with a Hahnemuel Photo Rag and your eye will gravitate to the Photo Rag. Then put the Photo Rag next to a silver gelatin print of the same subject and your eye and heart goes to the silver gelatin. I guess I just want it all! :-}

    All the best

    Bob

  4. #4
    Abuser of God's Sunlight
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    brooklyn, nyc
    Posts
    5,796

    Any feedback? PhotoRag Luster/Satin papers????

    Can you describe the particular qualities of the silver print that you're missing? if you think your of your problem in terms of how to get specicfic qualities rather than how to emmulate the general look of that different material, you might get farther.

    Personally, what I miss (when I miss anything) about silver is the d-max and the three-dimensionality brought about by the gloss surface. This has led me to explore different surface coatings, since currently no one knows how to get carbon pigment inks to stick to a glossy paper.

    The plus side of this is that it truly lets you control every aspect of the print independently--not just the paper and the image, but the surface also. The minus side is that so far it's been a huge pain in the ass! One day I hope to have my cake and eat it too. Right now i still spend too much time baking. And half-baking.

  5. #5

    Any feedback? PhotoRag Luster/Satin papers????

    Paul, I hear ya! What you described, dmax, reflectivity of the gloss surface are exactly what I'm after. (I think it's what we all want.) In fact, I thinks that's all that's missing in order to completely win my heart over. I'm completely sold on the depth achieved with a beautiful fine art matte paper... let's just take it to that next level. I know we're getting close! Now, I know that the silver is suspended in the gelatin hence creating an even greater perception of depth in some way, however, I'm hoping that some of the benefits alloted via digital control will weigh in to the equation and offer an equal trade-off in some aesthetic way. I happen to LOVE kodak polymax. Too bad for me! It's gone. I can't get that finish with any other silver gelatin paper. I can get beautiful papers, albeit not the same. I think so long as I believe I'm doing the absolute best I can in terms of creating a print, I'm satisfied! By having that work on a media that is less beautiful than I think available kind of tweaks me and I feel I'm selling myself short. I would venture to say that in these times if we are being honest with ourselves, most of us struggle with that.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    2

    Any feedback? PhotoRag Luster/Satin papers????

    You are getting the 4800? The one with the rebate? The rebate is to get rid of most of them so they can introduce the replacement which will have the ink cartridges so you don't have to remove one & clean the system when switching from matt to gloss papers. It also allows you to clean only one cartridge if that is all that shows problems on the nozzle check. A heck of an improvement for the new year.

  7. #7

    Any feedback? PhotoRag Luster/Satin papers????

    HG. From what I hear, the Image Print Rip solves this problem in an indetecable way by removing one of the light black inks and replacing it with Matte Black. A person at Lexjet.com told me one of her customers did some tests with and without the 3rd ink and using the IP rip and the results were the same! Now, I don't know how qualified that person is and at this point it's hearsay.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    2,707

    Any feedback? PhotoRag Luster/Satin papers????

    Kirk,

    I could not agree more with your opening paragraph.

  9. #9

    Any feedback? PhotoRag Luster/Satin papers????

    Where I work, I see the very best that inkjets have to offer, as well as the best silver and ra-4 prints. The ink jet prints always seem to be lacking to me. While they definitely have the sharpness of traditional prints, they do not have the same depth of image. When looking at a good silver or ra-4 print, the images have a sense of depth and roundness that inkjet doesn't seem to replicate yet. I personally am not invested in either traditional or digital ways of image-making, but am looking forward to the day when digital will allow me to replicate the look of traditional prints. I know I am supposed to appreciate the new look of inkjets and not compare them to silver prints, but it's hard not to.

  10. #10

    Any feedback? PhotoRag Luster/Satin papers????

    Morgan,

    When you refer to RA-4 prints......are you referring to color or B&W?

Similar Threads

  1. Satin Snow Ground Glass
    By Michael Graves in forum Gear
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 14-Dec-2005, 19:39
  2. Feedback on 8x10
    By paul owen in forum Cameras & Camera Accessories
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 19-Apr-2005, 15:45
  3. Zero Feedback Bidders On E-Bay
    By Bruce E. Rathbun in forum Resources
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 7-Mar-2005, 03:42
  4. Feedback on LINK4PC.COM?
    By Michael Mutmansky in forum Resources
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 29-Mar-2004, 12:05
  5. kodak ultima satin
    By mo in forum Digital Hardware
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 3-Feb-2004, 13:22

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •