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Thread: Ideal film/developer-drum scanning B&W Landscapes

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  1. #1

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    Ideal film/developer-drum scanning B&W Landscapes

    After 20 years absence from Photography, I'm back. I've shot 2 1/4 and 4x5 in the past of landscapes strictly in B&W. Used to use Pyro developer with propriety formular- basically what is now WD2D. I've noticed in using my new scanner that grain can be an issue with the negatives I shot 25 years ago - then it was not a problem as I used Fred Pickers Cold Light Head for my printing.

    Films have come and gone, hopefully some have improved, in the last 20 years. I've reviewed many posts here but find very little on scanning and the ideal film/s.

    I would appreciate your suggestions for what B&W film AND developer I should give consideration to. I know there is a lot of personal preferances involved but ideally I'm seeking advise from individuals who are scanning their files and printing up to and including 30x40 size prints for the fine art market, but I'll listen to most anyone that has something to share!

    I prefer to go with one film and developer for my work and learn it's traits in detail rather than constantly changing.

    The key factor is that the B&W negs will be scanned on my Howtek 8000 drum scanner, which can scan down to 3 microns, so grain is a serious consideration for me; far more concern on grain and latitude than film speed. Currently I'm finding I'm getting best scanned images at 8 and 10 microns from my old negatives.

    To date, I've purchase the following for my use: Howtek 8000 HiResolve drum scanner and the Jobo CPP2 with lift to do my own developing; X-Rite 810 densitometer to calibrate my negatives to the Zone System. All future shooting will be on 120/220 film and 4x5 - I don't care if I have to load my 4x5 or go with QuickLoads/ReadyLoads - I'm far more concerned with results rather than convenience.

    Once negative is scanned, I'll stay in the digital domain with CS2 and be printing on the Epson 4800. No darkroom printing.

    Your guidance and learned experience is appreciated.
    Jack

  2. #2

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    Ideal film/developer-drum scanning B&W Landscapes

    Jack, I was in your situation about six months ago. As I don't have extensive experience I will direct you to a site that specifically adresses your questions.

    http://www.butzi.net/articles/tuning1.htm

    For fine grain I recommend Kodak T-max 100, or Fuji Acros 100. Both are great films, but I prefer Acros since it does not require any reciprocity correction up to 2 minutes.

  3. #3

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    Ideal film/developer-drum scanning B&W Landscapes

    When you develop your negatives for scanning, leave them a little softer than you might otherwise, because with a digital workflow, we can always increase contrast. The limiting factor, even with a high-end scanner, will be the range of brightness, more so than resolution, which can be captured.

    I suggest TMax 400 for 4x5, developed in Pyrocat HD. After 30 years absence from cold light heads, Tri-X, HC-110, etc. I found this combination to be the modern-day equivalent. If the grain is appropriate, then use if for roll film as well. If not, then Ilford FP4 will suit you nicely, with very similar flexibility for zonal expansion and contraction.

    Don't take my word for it (although I have plenty of sample images which may help persuade). Have a look at the research work done by Sandy King and others. It is thorough, compelling, and consistently reliable.

  4. #4
    Resident Heretic Bruce Watson's Avatar
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    Ideal film/developer-drum scanning B&W Landscapes

    Jack,

    You've asked this question several times in several places. What is it about the answers you are getting that you don't like?

    Bruce Watson

  5. #5

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    Ideal film/developer-drum scanning B&W Landscapes

    Bruce,

    The absense of a large enough sampling of suggestions from folks that are actually scanning with a high end scanner.

    That and the idea that this site may be more on target with the work I'm doing.

    Jack

  6. #6

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    Ideal film/developer-drum scanning B&W Landscapes

    Ron,

    What are you using for a developer?
    Using a Jobo?
    Is so, suggested times?

    I've just ordered some Acros 4x5, so I'll be doing testing next week.

    Thanks,
    Jack

  7. #7

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    Ideal film/developer-drum scanning B&W Landscapes

    Just my two cents... every successful photographer I know tests before making a "final" decision, and then those "final" decision are never forever.

    Since your Howtek and Epson are fixed variables, why not try a round of different films? You may find that color neg maybe better, since the idea of calibrating to the Zone System is only going as far as capturing information onto your negative, not in making a trad print. Then again, isn't the Howtek an 8-bit scanner so that you're only scanning the middles and not the ends?

  8. #8

    Ideal film/developer-drum scanning B&W Landscapes

    Jack,

    What you are possibly going to experience with a drum scanner is grain ailasing effects; the condition that occurs when the sampling size is close to the inherent grain size of the film. This effect does not occur with typical flatbed scanners because they never perform anywhere near the actual resolution they claim. Recent tests on consumer oriented scanners sho that they all max out at about 2200 ppi, which is below the grain size of all but the fastest, grainiest films.

    However, you have to also consider thatif you are shooting 4x5, it is unlikely that you will ever need to sample above about 2000ppi for a reasonable print, unless you print very large. That's not to say a flatbed can perform equally to a PMT scanner, but that you may not ever need to sample as small as you have mentioned, except in cases when you are using a smaller source negative.

    Since you have a drum scanner, I recommend you change nothing about your negative contrast, because the scanner will easily be able to handle the density of a normal silver negative. Developing to a low contrast will ultimately INCREASE the apparent grain and noise effects in the image by extrapolating the data outward in the digital realm, which may cause the subtle noise artifacts to become more prominant.

    Most scanners, even consumer flatbeds, can easily handle the range of density in a traditional silver negative, that may go from about .15D up to about 1.2D or so. They should even be able to handle negatives developed for alternative processes reasonably well, and drum scanners can easily handle the very high densities of negatives developed for pt/pd without difficulty (at least mine can).

    If you are concerned about grain, shoot the tightest grain film you can find, TMAX 100 or Acros, and develop it in a staining developer. The stain is not grain-based, so the density it adds will not contribute to the grain ailasing effect. I would not recommend a developer like Rodinal in these situations, as the grain will be very defined and will probably give you fits in the scanning stage.

    Beyond that, you may have to oversample the scan a little to knock down the grain ailasing effects. This will soften the scan slightly, but sharpening in PS later on will compensate.

    I recommend you make some reasonable decisions about what you want to be able to do with your 4x5's first, and then make some tests based on the magnification that you will need to do to meet the output that you desire. There's no reason to take the approach beyond what you can reasonably output, because the files become very large, and much slower to manipulate. This means you probably won't be scanning at 4000ppi with 4x5, and therefore the grain ailasing may not truely be an issue, but more of a theoretical problem. And even then, there are ways to deal with it.

    ---Michael

  9. #9

    Ideal film/developer-drum scanning B&W Landscapes

    Then again, isn't the Howtek an 8-bit scanner so that you're only scanning the middles and not the ends?

    What? ...

    Frank, an 8 bit scan has nothing to do with where in the source densities the scanner operates, only the number of possible 'steps' that the scanner is capable of placing the data into for the output file. PMT scanners are ANALOGUE devices up until the point where the data is converted for output by the A to D converter. Some of the older ones are only 8 bit, but internally, they may be 12 bit.

    ---Michael

  10. #10

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    Ideal film/developer-drum scanning B&W Landscapes

    Frank,

    The Howtek HiResolve 8000 has the following specs:
    8000 Optical dpi
    17 apertures - down to 3 microns
    Density 0-3.9 OD
    12 bits per color; 4096 levels of gray
    Effective scanning area: 11.5"x12"
    Reflective and Transparent.

    I use the Aztek DPL Pro which gives a 16 bit Tiff Grayscale file.

    I'm finding that I'll scan 2 1/4 x 2 1/4 at 8K res and 8 or 10 microns.
    4x5's are working best at 4K res at 8 or 10 microns.

    I have scanned several 4x5's at 8K - the detail is awesome BUT the file size is typically in the 3 GB range. Even with 8GB in my G5/2.7GHz machine it is just too large of a file to be able to work with any layers and feel comfortable about it.

    Jack

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