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Thread: Ever felt in the minority?

  1. #21
    Cordless Bungee Jumper Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Re: Ever felt in the minority?

    Garden Party
    Ricky Nelson

    Went to a garden party to reminisce with my old friends
    A chance to share old memories and play our songs again
    When I got to the garden party, they all knew my name
    No one recognized me, I didn't look the same
    But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well.
    You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself

    People came from miles around, everyone was there
    Yoko brought her walrus, there was magic in the air
    And over in the corner, much to my surprise
    Mr. Hughes hid in Dylan's shoes wearing his disguise
    But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well.
    You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself
    Played them all the old songs, thought that's why they came
    No one heard the music, we didn't look the same
    I said…
    But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well.
    You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself
    Someone opened up a closet door and out stepped Johnny B. Goode
    Playing guitar like a-ringin' a bell and lookin' like he should
    If you gotta play at garden parties, I wish you a lotta luck
    But if memories were all I sang, I rather drive a truck
    And it's all right now, learned my lesson well
    You see, ya can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself
    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  2. #22
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Ever felt in the minority?

    Quote Originally Posted by bieber View Post
    But exposing to the right does produce optimal images on a digital medium. It's a way of compensating for the fact that while we think of exposure in terms of stops, the medium used to store a digital exposure is linear and therefore the amount of dynamic range available to you drops by half with every stop you go down from the right edge of the histogram. Situating the brightest part of your scene on the right side of the histogram, therefore, allows you to capture the most possible data about your subject vs. leaving that information-dense right edge empty.

    I think the better question is why, if your friends are producing images they're happy with, you're so intent that they should refrain from using the current state of the art in technique. The zone system was new once too, do you suppose you would have been chided by older photographers for using it back then, even as it helped you make art you were happy with?
    I never intended in preventing them from using any method that works for them. I have ezposed to rhe rigjt as knebis supposed to and even with post-processing, yhe ages looked like crap. Another falsehood is if you don't ettr then your not getting all the information which is patently wrong. Ettr is a tool and too many former film phitigraohersand digital only photographers believe it a holy grail for perfection. It isn't. It is a tool like everything else and if used properly will provide good results.

    I was commenting on how I can mention something about an anolig technique like exposure and they become defensibe and tell me the error of my ways and the 50 reasons why I am wrong. That is what I was commenting on, I don't force anything on anyone. Except when I had to arrest someone then you did what I told you. ��

  3. #23
    DG 3313's Avatar
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    Re: Ever felt in the minority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Ruttenberg View Post
    My friends also comment on how long it takes me to setup, compose, focus and finally take the picture. By the time I take one or two, they have been pacing around ready to leave. It was so bad at one point one of them said when asked to go to another area, sure as long as you don't bring that damned camera.

    Also commented that when he went on workshops with Michael Reich an that he would have got upset with me because I take my time photographing a scene. He said he shows up, points camera takes picture and moves on. One thing I notice is impatience of digital only photographers. When I shoot digital, it is an easy trap to fall into though I admit.
    What I neglected to say (type) was that my friend used his phone for the photo and not a DSLR. Must admit it was a nice image of what we saw that day.

  4. #24

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    Re: Ever felt in the minority?

    Quote Originally Posted by cowanw View Post
    I think a lot of people conflate the Zone system with routine metering and exposure decisions.
    I think a lot of people conflate the zone system and religion ...

    I’ve always had a more prosaic view, treating it much like calibrating an instrument or something like a chart recorder: set the zero and range and try to keep the luminance values within those limits so that you maximize the capture of information. If the luminance values won’t fit, you try to visualize how you want the image to appear, and make a command decision on what to sacrifice (or with digital, perhaps you make more than one exposure). If the score is intact, the performer can make the necessary refinements, but if parts of the score are missing, yer screwed. This approach has always struck me as pretty similar to Fred Picker’s: he calibrated on Zone I and Zone VIII. With minor adjustments, this approach seems to work with any medium. In many cases, it’s compatible with “expose to the right,” provided that you don’t fry the high tones—usually a greater concern with chromes and digital.

  5. #25
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Ever felt in the minority?

    Digital is not very forgiving in the hohlights. Not much better in shadows. Alrhiugh very linrar between the cutodfs wjere either no information recorded or where thwee is saturation in the highlights. Unlike film, once digital hits those points you're done since digital will no longer be able to record info. Film bwcause it is non-linear at the points digital cutS off, it continues to record info well beyound what digatal can and with proper technique can be revealed.

    I often think of it this way, the raw file is the same as a piece of undeveloped film. Film is developed using a myriad of techniques to get an image that contains everything needed to make an image that can be printed.

    Digital raw is run thru a raw developer like Adobe ACR or manufactures program to provide an image with everything needed to make an image that can be printed.

    From this analogy One can then apply the zone system in whole or in part or any other technique desired between film and digital.

    I also can see ettr as nothing moee than a version of the zone system. For film, one first decides how they want scene too look. Meters to ensure proper placement of shadow details for area of interest, makes exposure then develops and processes for print. Ie, exposes to the right to provide proper exposure letting highlights fall where they may. For digital it is the same. Ettr to get shadow detail desired, however, highlights cannot be allowed to just fall where they may. The use of grad nd filters to tame highlights and ensuring that the highlights are not blown out so one may need to back off exposure (ettl) if filtering not enough and hope they can pull out shadow detail desired by having had to back off exposure to avoid blowing out highlights. Backing off in digital has analogy in film of metering a detail and saying I want it in zone III. This requires ettl.

    So, to me, ettr has to be used intelligently and can be used as a digital version of the zone system. One could also say meter for highlights then adjust exposure to put highlight in zone they want and let shadows fall where they may, but that doesn't work so well in digital a lot of the times.

    I shot a scene digitally that required something like 8 stops to tame the skies and have shadow detail where I wanted so I could have image I desired. Made post processing image easier as it was almost there. If I had followed the wisdom of ettr the highlights would have been okay, but shadow detail would have been lost as black. And even if detail was recorderd, the noise would have been ridiculous. And hdr would not work as clouds were moving too fast.

    So my point is ettr is a tool and needs to be used intelligently or you will end up with junk same as blindly following the zone system for film. Each method is similar to the other and can be applied to both mediums effectively.

    [IMG]Bridge in Palouse. 5DMKIII, Canon 45mm TSE, 8 stops of grad ND. by Steven Ruttenberg, on Flickr[/IMG]

  6. #26

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    Re: Ever felt in the minority?

    OP, you are talking to the wrong people. Zone is not of interest to street shooters or the smartphone crowd. Talk to large format people.

    I looked at your site. From the little I saw you have some nice work. Sadly, very slow to load so I gave up after only seeing a few pix.

  7. #27

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    Re: Ever felt in the minority?

    Interesting post, I’ve had quite the opposite reaction. So many digital photographers don’t understand the basics. They don’t really know what an f stop is or what it means, for example. When they see a LF camera, like my shiny 1930s 5X7 Deardorff or my Canham, they are in awe and eager to ask questions. Which I am happy to answer.

    Photographers who lack a thorough knowledge of the basics are quickly out of their depth if they attempt a “this is so I much better” argument. For the rest, there is no counter to “I enjoy working with this camera.”

  8. #28
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Ever felt in the minority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iluvmyviewcam View Post
    OP, you are talking to the wrong people. Zone is not of interest to street shooters or the smartphone crowd. Talk to large format people.

    I looked at your site. From the little I saw you have some nice work. Sadly, very slow to load so I gave up after only seeing a few pix.
    Not sure why it is slow to load. It is zenfolio. They might be having a problem. Never heard of site being slow. I wil email them to find out. If it is flikr, I don't know about that either. I just use that to post images here and other places.

    Thanks for compliments on wbat you were able to see.

    The friends I am talking about though are long time photographers who either started digitally or cknverted over tk digital. One was large format and stil uses movements with his digital work, but wants no part of film anymore. Same with another he was a 35mm guy, but converted and now doesn't want anything to do with film. Perhaps the crowd I hang oit with zhould be LF types. 35mm digital group are an impatient lot.

  9. #29
    multiplex
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    Re: Ever felt in the minority?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Ruttenberg View Post
    The friends I am talking about though are long time photographers who either started digitally or cknverted over tk digital. One was large format and stil uses movements with his digital work, but wants no part of film anymore. Same with another he was a 35mm guy, but converted and now doesn't want anything to do with film. Perhaps the crowd I hang oit with zhould be LF types. 35mm digital group are an impatient lot.
    hi steven

    you are always going to run into people like that. they use a different camera now and don't really want
    to talk about or have anything to do with what they left behind. best thing to do is just not talk about this sort of
    stuff with them since you now know what sorts of comments/commentary &c they will provide. i'd just do your thing
    and let them do theirs. i also have friends who were long time film users, and now they like using electronic stuff and
    if you mention anything emulsion or technique to them they get all defensive about what they are doing &c
    .. not worth the aggravation to bring up the subject ... if you know what i mean
    have fun!
    john
    ps i loaded your website, enjoyed the images and had no troubles with the load speed .. sometimes the inter webs is weird ..

  10. #30
    Steven Ruttenberg's Avatar
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    Re: Ever felt in the minority?

    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    hi steven

    you are always going to run into people like that. they use a different camera now and don't really want
    to talk about or have anything to do with what they left behind. best thing to do is just not talk about this sort of
    stuff with them since you now know what sorts of comments/commentary &c they will provide. i'd just do your thing
    and let them do theirs. i also have friends who were long time film users, and now they like using electronic stuff and
    if you mention anything emulsion or technique to them they get all defensive about what they are doing &c
    .. not worth the aggravation to bring up the subject ... if you know what i mean
    have fun!
    john
    ps i loaded your website, enjoyed the images and had no troubles with the load speed .. sometimes the inter webs is weird ..
    I agree and have resigned myself to not having comversations of interest. Which is a shame given intellectual conversation is always fun.

    Thank you. I need to get it organized and paired down to the best of the best.

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