When Good Pyrocat goes Bad

[esearing]

Has anyone ever gotten pink negatives from Pyrocat HD? FP4+ and Delta 100

I don't think I cross contaminated my A and B containers but yesterdays developing left me with some thin negatives that were stained pink/magenta instead of tan. I ran them through a fresh batch of fixer just to make sure it wasn't film dye.
I scanned them with an Iphone app and there is some detail there but the negs are very thin.

the Pyrocat HD is about 8 months old and stored indoors around 70-74 degrees. It did seem more "foamy" than usual so wondering if there was contamination from the tanks previous run still containing some fixer, but I wash the film in the tank for at least 10 minutes.
I have not used photo-flo in a while so no foam from there unless it really sticks to the plastics.

Fortunately I have some of the stock in separate containers so I can test with that before losing any more "important" shots.

[koraks]

1: pink hues, especially if not proportional to image density, are antihalation dyes. Pyrocat stain is never pink, not even when the Pyrocat is old. Particularly in films like delta, the pink stain of antihalation dyes can be persistent and in some cases, even 10 minutes of fixing in fresh 1+4 fixer does not entirely eliminate it.
2: thin negatives can certainly be the result of oxidized Pyrocat. What color is your concentrate? Mine is usually pink or yellow when fresh, tending to red or tan when it is older. Fully oxidized Pyrocat should be very dark brown/black and virtually opaque. If yours is light in color, it is unlikely to be very bad and a mixing or development timing/agitation or exposure error is more probable.
3. Foaming is not a sign of developer age and in my experience Pyrocat, old or fresh, does not cause foaming. Remnants of a surfactant or soap on a container is a more likely cause, but you seem to have (partly) ruled that out. However, surfactants are known to adhere to plastics quite well over time. I understand soaking tanks in a water with a denture cleaning tablet can help clean them.

If you can, post a pic of your negatives, it'll make the issue clearer.

[Andrew Tymon]

I always develop a small one inch piece of film in 200 ml of pyrocat while I'm setting up. I like to check it builds density and compare it to a piece I developed when the developer was fresh. It only takes ten minutes whilst getting everything ready. I spend hours making negatives and hate to waste the effort. Was the pyrocat in glycol?

Andy

[Alan9940]

I've had Pyrocat-HD die on me in <1 year, though everyone always says that it lasts for years; even when mixed in distilled water. Negatives came out thin, as you report, but never pink. I suspect the pink color is anti-halation dye, as others have already said. Occasionally, I have to resort to a hypo clear solution to fully remove the dye.

[esearing]

I always develop a small one inch piece of film in 200 ml of pyrocat while I'm setting up. I like to check it builds density and compare it to a piece I developed when the developer was fresh. It only takes ten minutes whilst getting everything ready. I spend hours making negatives and hate to waste the effort. Was the pyrocat in glycol?

Andy

Great Idea Andrew. I always test my fixer that way so might as well check the whole process.

so I ran a fully exposed sliver of film through the process and it is dark brown/grey as expected.

I then ran a test properly exposed negative with the original stock containers and got the same result. I washed all syringes, tank parts, and mixing vessels before starting.
The Pyrocat HD in Glycol is what is foaming. Fresh water in the tank shaken does not foam. Fixer in the tank is not foaming.
No amount of fix time will reduce the pink cast with even fresh fixers so not an anti-halation dye issue. I cleared an unprocessed piece of film in about 20 seconds.

Looks like I have to order more to be sure. But I am throwing away more than half full 500ml bottles if the chemistry is the problem. I would expect it to last at least a year.

[Andrew Tymon]

Do you pre-soak your film? I noticed when I processed some FP4+ the pre-soak was a little frothy, I never use photo-flo in my unicolor drum. If your negative you did a test with developed normally, then you Pyrocat should be fine.

[esearing]

Here is an example. Left negative processed a few days ago and is a little thin but similar in color to prior negatives. the middle is an N-1 processed Negative (shortened development time) and the right is a normal process. I took a slice from the first image so you could see the color shift so even if my monitor or yours are not color correct, the difference is obvious.



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[Mark Sampson]

The pink cast is almost certainly retained anti-halation dye. Fresh fixer, hypo-clearing agent, and a longer wash will eliminate that. This was first seen as a problem when the Kodak T-Max films were new; luckily the pink stain has little or no effect on print quality, and can be easily removed by the above procedure (if desired).
Your negatives don't look too under-developed to me; the center one looks underexposed, and there's what appears to be full density in the right-hand image. Of course I can't really tell from your scan, your contact proofs will tell the story.
I use Pyrocat-HD (in glycol) and it has 'gone bad' on me once. However I can't document the exact circumstances so don't put too much weight on that.

[richydicky]

I don't think I cross contaminated my A and B containers but yesterdays developing left me with some thin negatives that were stained pink/magenta instead of tan. I ran them through a fresh batch of fixer just to make sure it wasn't film dye.
I scanned them with an Iphone app and there is some detail there but the negs are very thin.

I had exactly the same happen to me testing for the first time with FP4 4x5. I had been using it for 8x10 sheets of X-ray film and FP4/HP5 all coming out fine but though I noted that last X-ray sheet I processed after the FP4 4x5 came out a bit thin so I will re-test it before using again. Mine is about 9 months old.

[esearing]

I let the pinkest of the bunch sit in fresh fixer 1:4 for an hour with some agitation, then washed it for 30 minutes with 5 mins in washaid. Its still pink.
Its as if the dye hardened into the emulsion. I know what an under fixed image looks like. This ain't that.
When I get my new batch of developer I may bleach and redevelop to see if anything changes.

Note my working stock (small bottle) and my storage stock (big bottle) are both exhibiting this issue. Something just reached the end of its shelf life.
Both A and B yield a clear to light tan liquid once mixed.

To answer the question above - I do presoak for 5-6 minutes with some minimal agitation at 70 degrees same as my working temp for Pyrocat. FP4 yields a nice dark blue water when dumped. Delta 100 was not as noticeable.