Developing my first 8x10 - stand development

[Paul Cutler]

Hi everyone,
I am going to be developing my first sheets of 8x10. I understand the usual tray development technique of shuffling the pack of film every minute (though to confess, so far I am so anxious I do one sheet at a time!). But I was wondering about the idea of stand development (especially FP4+ in Rodinal at dilution 1+100) and wondered if you could do this in a tray. Can you place the film in a tray of developer, agitate once and then leave it in the tray for 50 minutes or so and then pull it out? This would be what i would do with roll film in a tank so wondered if the technique converts.
Any advice much appreciated
Paul

[David A. Goldfarb]

It can be done, but be sure your darkroom is *really* dark, because at 50 minutes in an open tray, any small light leaks will begin to show. It's also handy to have a darkroom with a lightproof entrance, so you don't have to sit there in the dark for 50 minutes. Maybe if you can find a large enough paper safe to hold a tray, that might help.

Some people use tubes for stand development with 8x10".

[Michael A.Smith]

Stand development in a tray is more than likely to give you streaking on your negative. See the extensive discussion on the Azo Forum about this. (www.michaelandpaula.com under "Azo". Then search.)

[John Cook]

Paul, I have never done stand development with pictorial camera film in a tray.

But, as a process camera operator for a few years, I have developed my share of 8x10 litho film in trays.

As you may know, the best results for this type of film are obtained with still (or nearly still) development. Of course, the development time was shorter and we did it by inspection under red light.

I personally would begin with various varieties of dramatically reduced agitation (such as flipping the film every two or four minutes) and work my way up to total stand development.

Don't forget to use enough stock Rodinal to do the job. I believe the factory recommends a minimum of 10ml per 8x10 sheet.

[Scott Killian]

I've developed many 8x10 negs using stand development and Michael is absolutely right. The film needs to be upright to avoid bromide drag and uneven development. Make your own tubes out of ABS plastic. Everything you need to know is on the Azo forum.

[Daniel Blakeslee]

J&C Photo has 8x10 developing tubes for $15. Light-tight and very well made.

[Jay DeFehr]

Hi Paul.

Mr. Cook gives good advice here. The idea is that using a very dilute developer, with reduced agitation, promotes local developer exhaustion at the boundaries between high and low densities, resulting in exhaggerated adjacency effects, and a compensating effect. The penalties for this approach include mottling, streaking, uneven development, and increased fog. Extensive testing and experimentation are required to arrive at a relatively dependable process, and how far you can reduce agitation will depend on all of the other factors that affect development, such as: developer, dilution, tank/tube, or tray, film, subject matter, processing temp, and development time. By following Mr. Cook's advice, and beggining by using continuous agitation, and reducing agitation incrementally, you'll have a basis for comparison, by which you can determine wether there is any benefit to be had by reducing agitation, and if so, at what frequency of agitation the benefits are optimal. Pat Gainer is currently investigating the effects of EDRA (extended development/reduced agitation) techniques on curve shape (compensating effect), with special attention to the alkali content of the developer. He is using a unique, ascorbic acid/amidol developer, and his preliminary results seem promising, regarding the effectiveness of his developer for EDRA techniques. Perhaps he'll publish his findings in another of his excellent articles which appear in Photo Techniques magazine. Good luck.

Jay

[Richard Rankin]

With all due respect to the above posters, all of whom would know far me than I do, I would suggest that you take one step at a time. From your post, it sounds as if you have never developed your own B&W sheet film before. If that is the case, I'd suggest you get a technique (any technique) down pat, then branch out. If you don't have experience with negs you've developed, I think experimenting, trouble-shooting, etc is going to be far more difficult with alternate methods.

As someone probably closer to your experience, I'd suggest a tube/drum and roller motor to start. You can get a Unicolor type tube/drum and motor on Ebay for very little money. You only need to load the tube in the dark, easily done in a changing bag or tent. Then, when you get some results, see if stand development, etc is helpful to you. I started with trays becasue I thought it would be easier, but drum/motor is the way to go, in my opinion.

And, also from experience, don't be afraid to do one sheet in a tray, then after a time or two, try 2 sheets, etc. If you try 4 at once, as a beginner, you are almost certain to nick some emulsion somewhere. By doing one sheet at a time, you start with success and build on it.

In the event you ignore all of this and start tray stand development, I used to do lith printing (also a technique requiring long times of materials in chemicals). I used to put the chemicals in an 11x14 tray and then cover it with an inverted dark 12x16 tray or use an 8x10 and cover with an inverted 11x14. You can rock the bottom tray fairly easily like this and cut down on potential light problems.

Good luck,

Richard

[Steve Sherman]

Paul,
Do not try developing film with this process in a tray. Film must be in a vertical orientation while still I do
myself develop film in an open tank for the necessary time in a darken darkroom. My times have gone as
far as 120 minutes, although I have scaled things back with dilution and agitation modifications.

I wrote two articles about this process in the March / April and July / August issues of View Camera
Magazine, these would be good reading if you are unfamiliar with the process.

Also, I am writing another article as a practical approach to this process as there has been far too much
emphasis put on the scientific reasons why this technique works and not enough discussion on how this
technique can yield creative possibilities not possible prior to this discovery.

Good Luck, keep us posted

[John Berry ( Roadkill )]

I use semi-stand development and wouldn't go back. I would say go right into it, there is no reason to do another procedure if you are going top do somthing else later. It HAS to be done verticle for the reasons already stated. I made 3 tanks for 4 Kodak 8X10 hangers out of clear 1/4 inch acrylic. You have to use the acrylic cement, first time JB weld has let me down. 1/8 inch would be too flexible. Inside dimentions: 10.5 X10.5X2.5 inches. Just right for 4 ltrs of developer. I develop Fp-4, shot at 100, in pyrocat-hd 1.5:1:200 for 23 min @ 72. Two ASA agitations with 12 min left. Negs are keyed to new Azo #2 and carbon. DR of about 1.6 I also develop by inspection with night vision goggles. The night vision goggles aren't necessary till you use them once, then they are indespensible. I can focus at minimum distance and inspect negs as they develop, inches away, and study them. The IR source has no effect even with long, close, continous examination on Fp-4. With fp-4 you can watch the emultion side, with Acros you have to watch the base side.