New Monorail, a Toho rip-off ?

[Amund BLix Aaeng]

It`s not listed on Shen-Haos website, it could be that Robert White has made a mistake....

[Ron Marshall]

It could be that Shen Hao hasn't updated their website yet.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Before we start bashing Shen-Hao in earnest over this, maybe we should consider the fact that, one, there is no mention of the camera anywhere else on the Web, or even on the Shen-Hao web site. It only appears on the Robert White site.

The Shen Hao web site seems to often be out of date, and it's always difficult to navigate. But, you're right, the only reference to this camera is on the Robert White web site. They call it a Shen Hao SR45-II. I would expect them to know who they are getting the camera from.

In any case, I never even mentioned Shen Hao in my original post. Whether the camera is made by Shen Hao, distributed by Shen Hao, or has nothing to do with Shen Hao has no bearing on my feelings on the blatant copying of another companies product. It's wrong and destroys innovation, no matter who's doing it. I'm not bashing any particular company, just objecting to a practice I find offensive.

Two, Shen-Hao is looking to get out of the low-priced camera business, so why introduce another low-priced camera, particularly after the $1,800 8x10 they just introduced.

That's the first I've heard of this. What is your source for this information? Does this mean they are going to discontinue their HZ45X-AII? Seems like an odd business decision as it's no doubt their biggest seller by far. Their main competitive advantage is their low prices. Seems like an unusual decision to throw this advantage away when it's what got their foot in the door in the US LF market in the first place. Of course, it wouldn't be unprecedented. Kodak has made many similar decisions in recent years to throw away their competitive advantages in one area in favor of competing in other areas where they clearly have no such advantages. In any case, this is a separate issue from blatantly copying a competitor's product.

And three, if this is a Shen-Hao, it would be priced a bit lower than the $950 Robert White has it for, at least here in the US.

I'm not sure how this is relevant. Robert White's price on the HZ45X-AII is also a lot higher (~$895) than what it sells for in the US.

Seems that these days any camera made in China is automatically assumed to be a Shen-Hao. Maybe we should find out who makes it before jumping to any conclusions.

Agreed, but it matters little to me. I have no axe to grind in the Shen Hao vs. The World debate. It is the general practice of ripping of a competitor's product by blatantly copying it that offends me - no matter who is doing it. I'd be just offended no matter who was doing the copying.

Let the flaming begin.....

I see no "flaming" in this thread - just people expressing their opinions. It is possible to disagree, even in an online forum, without resporting to insults, foul language and personal attacks.

Kerry

[e]

I think Shen-hao is going to take over a very large part of the LF market in the next few years. They have a 7x17 coming out later this year for $2700.00 in teak and titanium. The 12x20 due in after that probably won't be much more. Who will compete with these prices? Canham? Wisner? Ebony? I don't think so. There will be some LFer's who vote with their pocketbook but most will not. Some LF companies will either experience reduced sales in certain lines or go out completely. There is not much anyone can do about it. It's a shame but that's business reality unless the smaller companies turn up the heat by new patented innovations, increased quality or lowered price points. Emile/www.deleon-ulf.com

[Nick_3536]

Kerry if you look at all the cameras Shen Hao has released in the last year or two none of them are low priced. They are all more expensive then the low end cameras. Any one buying the 5x12 is going to spend a fair bit for just film holders. The cameras are cheaper then something from Ebony but they aren't low priced. In every case you could get something from Tachihara for less money. No one is buying the new models on price.

[Dean Tomasula]

Kerry,

I agree with you concerning the baltant rip-off of someone elses design. I sincerely hope Shen-Hao is not involved in this.

"I see no "flaming" in this thread - just people expressing their opinions. It is possible to disagree, even in an online forum, without resporting to insults, foul language and personal attacks."

Obviously you weren't here for the last Shen-Hao debate that Paul and I participated in.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

I think Shen-hao is going to take over a very large part of the LF market in the next few years. They have a 7x17 coming out later this year for $2700.00 in teak and titanium. The 12x20 due in after that probably won't be much more.

Emile,

THIS is what Shen Hao should be concentrating on doing - not blatantly cloning other companies' existing products (if, indeed they are the ones producing or distributing the SR45-II). Still, I'm not ready to concede the large format market to Shen Hao - or anyone else. For one thing, their choice of materials makes their cameras heavier than much of the higher priced competition. Some people will choose to spend more for a lighter camera, or perhaps a camera with a longer bellows, or different features, etc. Those are some of the trade-offs that ensure multiple products from multiple manufacturers in the market.

Who will compete with these prices?

Jim Chinn's new 7x17 will supposedly be lower priced AND include two film holders in the price of the camera. Richard Ritter's new 7x17 is only $300 more, but at 10 lbs. will be significantly lighter than the 7x17 Shen Hao (heck, it's over a pound lighter than the 5x12 Shen Hao). So, still plenty of room for competition. And this brings us full circle to my original argument - healthy competition is good for the marketplace. It drives innovation and drives down prices. Better products at lower prices are good for the consumers, but also good for the industry as more people enter the market as the cost of entry is less. Blatant copying of your competitor's products is NOT healthy competition. If Shen Hao, or anyone else, can take over a large share of the market because they have better products and/or lower prices more power to them - as long as they can do so without cloning other people's products. Theft is not a form of "healthy competition".

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

No one is buying the new models on price.

Isn't the 5x7 Shen Hao about the same price as the Tachihara? This makes it basically tied for the lowest priced new 5x7 camera on the market. Also, I'd guess they sell a LOT more 4x5 cameras than all the other formats combined. So, while their large format cameras may not be the cheapest on the market, they still derive a large portion of their income from "low priced" cameras and roll film backs. I don't se them abandoning these low priced products anytime soon. In fact, I think it would be foolish to do so as the profits made on these products can be re-invested in DEVELOPING (not just copying) new higher-end products.

Kerry

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Obviously you weren't here for the last Shen-Hao debate that Paul and I participated in.

Different thread, different topic.

As I said, I'm not here to bash any particular brand, or get in a shouting match with any fellow forum participants. The only reason I jumped in here with both feet is that somebody (perhaps Shen Hao, perhaps not) is producing and selling a blatant copy of the Toho FC-45X. Even if I didn't own a Toho, I'd be offended by this practice. I'd be just as outraged if it was a Canham DLC or Linhof Technikardan that had been cloned. I just wanted to point out that purchasing such blatant copies, while it may save you a couple hundred bucks in the short term, hurts the LF market in the long run. That, and not reviving some old Brand A vs. Brand B flame war, was my whole point.

Kerry

[Nick_3536]

The difference is the Shen Hao requires paying Fedex to ship it from China. My Fedex bill was over $200 IIRC. I don't know what Badger would charge but I bet it'll be less. Also the Tachihara prices seem to have crept up lately. I'd blame it on the weak US dollar but the Yen hasn't been that strong.