I would never knowingly buy stolen camera equipment, no matter how much of a bargain it was.
Essentially the new Shen Hao is stolen goods.
All monorail designs must look similar to some degree, but this is not a case of innovation or modification, or approximation; it is a copy.
Ron, Kerry and Paul are RIGHT!
Unfortunately, this is to be expected in today's China. The country is the world's biggest thief when it comes to pirating of software, CDs, DVDs, etc. Words such as patent, copyright, and intellectual property rights have virtually no meaning in China. Which is why (among other reasons) I try to not buy anything made in China.
As far as not buying Shen Hao, one could argue that at least they are ploughing ahead and producing affordable cameras - how many contributors here have shown an interest in the ULF cameras that they have in the pipeline?
Paul,
I'm not calling for a boycott of Shen Hao. I almost added another paragraph to my original post (guess I should have). In addition to cloning other people's designs, Shen Hao is perfectly capable of producing cameras of their own designs. I truly wish they would focus on this area of their business and not devote resources to blatantly copying other people's products. As far as I know the popular HZ45x-AII is an original design. It may have features common to other wooden field cameras (most do), but isn't a blatant copy of anyone else's product. They are also the only company currently producing a 5x12 camera. Again, is has features common to other wooden field camera designs, but as they are the only one making anything in this size, it's obviously not a clone of a competitor's product. I definitely support Shen Hao in their efforts to bring affordable cameras to the market - as long as they aren't blatantly copying anyone else's designs.
Should we not support a company that is ACTUALLY making LF cameras and equipment.
Toho is still in business - making and selling LF cameras. Don't they deserve our support?
I'm not suggesting that ripping off people's ideas is a good thing - but don't ALL cars nowadays look the same?
Many cars may look similar, but they certainly aren't identical. Look at the photos of the Shen Hao SR45 and then compare them to the photos of the Toho FC-45X on my web site. This is not a case of two products that look similar. The SR45 is a blatant clone of the Toho down to every last detail. Most wooden field cameras look similar, but they are not all the same. Most have unique combinations of features/materials/price/quality that set them apart from the others. This is not the case with the Shen Hao clone of the Toho. No effort what-so-ever was made to distinguish the copy from the original.
As an aside, lurking in the back of my mind is a though that didn't Badger "commission" a copy of the Toho too? Was it the M2?
I don't think Badger commissioned it, but they did sell it - briefly. They stopped selling it and removed it from their web site several months ago.
In reply to Kerry's post (whom I deeply respect!) - I believe that manufacturers who are ACTIVE will sell cameras ... maybe Shen Hao got tired of waiting for Toho to bring out an improved model and jumped in with their copy? The Toho has been around for some time now and remained unchanged, maybe if Toho were "actively" designing/producing cameras then such blatant copying would be less likely?
Define active. Toho is still in business and making cameras. The FC-45X IS a new and improved model. Their original ultralight monorail was the FC-45A. It had a completely different rail design (fixed length) and the front and rear function carriers were also different. I believe the FC-45X came out in 1998 or 1999. I got the first one Badger imported into the US - it was in August or early September of 1999. So, it's not that old of a design as far as large format cameras go. It's much newer than the Linhof Technikardan and newer than the Canham DLC. Just because it's a few years old does not give some one the right to blatantly copy it. I have no idea if Toho has any patents on their design, but patent protection typically runs about 20 years (the exact length depends on the type of patent, when it was filed, where it was filed, etc.). Also, Toho HAS introduced a new design, the Toho FC Mini, in the interim. So, the whole argument that Toho is not active in the LF business is nonsense.
I'm not sure the price of a new Toho these days?
$1195 USD.
But if Shen Hao are offering an exact copy at a reduced price people are more likely to vote with their wallets.
Unfortunately, you are probably right. I voted with my wallet and bought a Toho. Of course, that was nearly six years ago - long before the lower priced clone was available. Still, if I was making the purchase today, I'd still pay the difference (~$200) and buy the genuine article - both to get known quality AND support the designer/manufacture whose vision brought us this unique, ultralight field camera.
In some respects they are simply giving us what we want - affordable cameras.
In some respects they are - the HZ45X-AIIA, for example. In other respects, they are ripping off the competition and benefiting from someone else's vision, innovation and R&D costs. I support the former, but not the latter.
Kerry
Before we start bashing Shen-Hao in earnest over this, maybe we should consider the fact that, one, there is no mention of the camera anywhere else on the Web, or even on the Shen-Hao web site. It only appears on the Robert White site. Two, Shen-Hao is looking to get out of the low-priced camera business, so why introduce another low-priced camera, particularly after the $1,800 8x10 they just introduced. And three, if this is a Shen-Hao, it would be priced a bit lower than the $950 Robert White has it for, at least here in the US.
Seems that these days any camera made in China is automatically assumed to be a Shen-Hao. Maybe we should find out who makes it before jumping to any conclusions.
Let the flaming begin.....
Why isn't the camera on the Shen Hao website? Even the 5x12 is. It wouldn't be the first camera called a Shen Hao that wasn't.
BTW comparing the Robert White price for the HZX45 IIA the US price for the monorail is going to be a lot less.
I agree wholeheartedly with Kerry on this one. Examining the photos it's abundantly clear that, regardless of who is manufacturing the camera, it's an out and out copy, right down the the smallest detail.
With regards to saving a little money - remember this: the clone company has a business model which amounts to 'find a profitable product we can manufacture cheaply. Clone it and sell the clones." They are doing no market innovation, they're doing no research. When the large profit margin that they get by cloning camera designs dries up, they'll switch to cloning something else. It might be vacuum cleaners, or electric fence transformers. But they won't be making cameras, and photographers will be the losers.
-Paul
Dean
"Shen-Hao is looking to get out of the low-priced camera business"
Where did you get that information from?
Cloning products has a long tradition.
(from an interview with Harley Davidson's retired head mechanic)
During WWII, the US Army decided that it wanted an opposed twin motorcycle. Indian and Harley-Davidson were asked to produce a prototype. The HD prototype was based on the BMW boxer twin. They bought a BMW, disassembled it, measured it, and then produced their version with all of the nut sizes in SAE instead of metric. Then their head mechanic took it on the train down to the Army's test site. The Army officer wanted the motorcylcle driven across a mostly dried river bed. At that time the venerable Jeep was also in testing, and would lead the motorcycle to tow it out if it got stuck. As both vehicles were crossing the mud, the Jeep got stuck. The mechanic brought the motorcycle to the front of the Jeep, and they tied a rope from the motorcycle to the Jeep. The motorcycle was used to tow out the Jeep, and the mud was sometimes deep enough to cover the cylinders.
The Army went with the Jeep instead of the motorcylce. The mechanic, however, was very impressed with the German design.
Japan, in the late 1800's, imported a steam boat in order to reverse engineer it and produce it for the local market.
And as far as cheap LF is concerned, there is the used market with lots of great deals.
"It's the way to educate your eyes. Stare. Pry, listen, eavesdrop. Die knowing something. You are not here long." - Walker Evans
>>Are the cameras identical and made by one manufacturer with different distributors?
>
>No, the original is made in Japan and the clone is made in China.
>
>Kerry
Thanks, Kerry. I thought I'd ask since many Japanese products are actually made in
Korea, China and other SE Asian countries.
Toho may be protected by patents, design patents and copyright, however, it is up to them
to enforce sales restrictions assuming they have a legal basis to do so. Does anyone know
their position or even if they are aware of the clone?
Some time ago I found out that I was the author of three analytical chemistry books
translated into Chinese without my permission. Since they were ten years out of date
by that time, I felt flattered by the theft, but really questioned their judgement. Since
the books aren't exported, there's little that I can do other than update my resume.
Mike
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