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Thread: Archival stability of dye-transfer prints

  1. #21

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    Re: Archival stability of dye-transfer prints

    Have you done any tests with them? Ciba are very tough to beat for fading.
    Do you have custom labs in your area that will produce custom C prints?

  2. #22
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Archival stability of dye-transfer prints

    I have my own facility for printing up to 30X40 C-prints, but am trying to decide whether to add a 50" processor. I have been making high-end Cibas since the product first came out, so am extremely familiar with it. Dye transfer is intended more as a retirement hobby,
    since it's so time intensive. There is one major local lab still doing custom C-prints the
    traditional enlarger manner, but several others using the expensive digital printers. I prefer
    the more seamless look of straight optical printing, but the advantage of the big digital
    printers is that they can take files from color negs, transparencies, or direct digital capture. Crystal Archive is has much better light resistance than Ciba, or better display life, but will eventually discolor (tend to yellow), so is inferior in terms of dark storage life.

  3. #23

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    Re: Archival stability of dye-transfer prints

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    Type C prints and RA4 processing are not in any danger of disappearing. The market is still
    huge. Cibachrome mfg has recently shut down. Dye Transfer would ironically be one of the
    easiest processes to revive because all you'd need to remanufacture is the matrix film (its
    been done several times already - but you need money!). Dyes are readily available. Window light tests only tell you about permanence in window light; but yes, you could use
    alum foil. The problem with inkjet prints in general is that there are so many possible combinations of paper and ink. You could probably solicit samples from forum members.
    And inkjets probably will hold up better for awhile in UV exposure. But the whole flaw in
    accelerated aging tests is that not all lumens are equal. Cooking some dyes in the window
    is not the same thing as long-term exposure to lower levels of light.
    This is the issue. Yes it can be done, but it wont be done because of economics. The only way it could be revived is by $$ underwriting it and forgetting the profit motive. For instance, I have had many pairs of custom skis built. They are not economical to have built at all, but I don't care about the $$, so I do as I please. If i was just about the $$, I would never have them built.

    That would be the only way dye transfer may be revived, but on a much larger scale than custom skis...forget about the $$ and just do it by someone that loves the process and has tons of $$.

    BUT even if so, who would make the prints even if the materials were revived??

    All the knowledge is going...going...gone soon. I was go great dye man myself. I could slap something together, but it was poor compared to the master printers. It will be 20 years soon since its demise and lots of talk about bringing it back...but nothing. I'm not holding my breath anyway. If we look at the trends, all wet film and print processes are headed downhill and eventually out. I may be wrong, but that is what I see as the trend.

  4. #24

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    Re: Archival stability of dye-transfer prints

    Quote Originally Posted by slackercruster View Post
    Have you done any tests with them?...
    Here's the best documented testing you're likely to find:


  5. #25
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Archival stability of dye-transfer prints

    Sal, everyone appreciates Wilhelm's pioneering tests and his attempt to get things on an
    objective playing field, but at the moment, the Aardenburg system addresses some of the
    shortfalls in Wilhelm's methodology, particularly regarding the variability of inkjet ingredients.

  6. #26
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Archival stability of dye-transfer prints

    Dye transfer has already been sucessfully revived, at least until the latest round of supplies dries up. But commercially it is indeed extinct - too expensive and laborious.
    A few individuals will still make custom dye transfer prints. Three large batches of matrice
    film have been run in Europe since Kodak dropped the process, and gallery prints are still
    being made. I have a freezer full of sheets from one of those Euro runs. More film could easily be produced if the demand is sufficient. A bigger problem is the rapidly escalating cost of sheet film itself needed forcolor separations, masks, etc., although separations can also be made on image-setters, or matrice exposures can be made directly with blue laser devices. Go over to the Dye Transfer Forum to visit what is currently being done, along with a lot of contentious discussion about methodology; for DT is a process particularly amenable to hybrid technique.

  7. #27

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    Re: Archival stability of dye-transfer prints

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    I have my own facility for printing up to 30X40 C-prints, but am trying to decide whether to add a 50" processor. I have been making high-end Cibas since the product first came out, so am extremely familiar with it. Dye transfer is intended more as a retirement hobby,
    since it's so time intensive. There is one major local lab still doing custom C-prints the
    traditional enlarger manner, but several others using the expensive digital printers. I prefer
    the more seamless look of straight optical printing, but the advantage of the big digital
    printers is that they can take files from color negs, transparencies, or direct digital capture. Crystal Archive is has much better light resistance than Ciba, or better display life, but will eventually discolor (tend to yellow), so is inferior in terms of dark storage life.
    With my own work I gave up the wet darkroom ages ago. Just digitial now. But I'm just a hobbiest. Are you heading to inkjet at all or sticking with the wet end for your biz?

  8. #28

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    Re: Archival stability of dye-transfer prints

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    Dye transfer has already been sucessfully revived, at least until the latest round of supplies dries up. But commercially it is indeed extinct - too expensive and laborious.
    A few individuals will still make custom dye transfer prints. Three large batches of matrice
    film have been run in Europe since Kodak dropped the process, and gallery prints are still
    being made. I have a freezer full of sheets from one of those Euro runs. More film could easily be produced if the demand is sufficient. A bigger problem is the rapidly escalating cost of sheet film itself needed forcolor separations, masks, etc., although separations can also be made on image-setters, or matrice exposures can be made directly with blue laser devices. Go over to the Dye Transfer Forum to visit what is currently being done, along with a lot of contentious discussion about methodology; for DT is a process particularly amenable to hybrid technique.
    Well that is good to know. What about the dyes and tanning dev and the rest. Are these readily available or are they home / lab made?

  9. #29

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    Re: Archival stability of dye-transfer prints

    I looked for the DT forum here, can't find it. Where is it?

  10. #30

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    Re: Archival stability of dye-transfer prints

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    Sal, everyone appreciates Wilhelm's pioneering tests and his attempt to get things on an
    objective playing field, but at the moment, the Aardenburg system addresses some of the
    shortfalls in Wilhelm's methodology, particularly regarding the variability of inkjet ingredients.
    I posted the link since it seemed the question was mainly dye transfer versus silver-dye-bleach versus chromogenic. No applicability to inkjet express or implied.

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