"although he doesn't seem intent on any improvement to the weight"
To most of us who've used Azo a lot, making it heavier is not an improvement. I much prefer that the new paper be a single rather than a double weight one.
BTW, the lack of grades and sizes of Azo is a shortcoming of Kodak and not of Azo.
I have said this many times before. The Bergger paper is NOT a silver chloride paper and is not a contact printing paper, despite what they call it. Anyone can call anything a contact printing paper. Heck, you can contact print on any enlarging paper. Does that make it a contact printing paper?
Fomalux? Don't know a thing about it.
I have printed on Azo single weight and double weight. I, and most everyone who uses it, though not all, prefer the single weight. Besides mounting nicer, single weight paper is half as expensive as double weight. And once you learn to handle it, there are no problems. Yes, there is a five-minute learning time for to learn to handle it properly. If there is anyone out there (or a consortium of people) who have deep pockets and who prefer double weight, we can get that made if you commit to an entire master roll.
Quinn: Have you tried Azo? In several developers?? Including Amidol? I bet not. How do you know how it responds to developers other than Amidol if you have not tried it. Amidol goes so far and is so easy to mix that it ends up only marginally more expensive than other developers, especially when prep time is considered.
Shipping to the UK is less than one week usually. And you pay in dollars, not pounds. With the weakness of the dollar, Azo is not expensive at all, even with shipping included.
"The Bergger paper is NOT a silver chloride paper and is not a contact printing paper, despite what they call it"
From the information sheet that came with the new paper "Bergger Prestige Art Contact 2 - A Silver Chloride, single grade fiber-based, double-weight contact printing paper"
Note that this is not the Berrger Bergger Prestige Fine Art or such
"Have you tried Azo? In several developers?? Including Amidol? I bet not."
Try not to make assumptions. Amidol and several other developers. My own favourite being Neutol WA at 75c. I also don't generally chose a developer based on how cheap it is?
OK guys. Cool it. I just want to find out more info on Fomalux papers and don't wish to cause a 'war' happening here, especially as a new comer. I will give these Fomalux papers a try and may order some azo from you, Michael, in near future. Could you give a rough estimate how much postage would be to UK.
Despite what Bergger says (and I am good personal friends with them) their contact paper is not a pure silver chloride paper.
I assume that if people have not gotten Azo from us they haven't really tried it. Since we started handling the paper (to save it) we have been the only supplier of Grade 3. No other supplier has been willing to commit to the large minimum purchase required. And because I know of no one who only needs one grade of paper to print their negatives, I assume that they haven't really tried Azo. Apologies if my assumption is mistaken here.
Shipping to England with handling is $47 for a box of grade 2 and grade 3. $29.10 for one box. No insurance. We value low for customs purposes. Insurance is your choice. We ship Azo overseas several times a week.
"Despite what Bergger says (and I am good personal friends with them) their contact paper is not a pure silver chloride paper."
Damned Frenchy's, never could trust them! (is Bergger still French). I just looked at the photocopy I have of the info sheet - it actually says "a Silver Chloride Iodide, single grade fiber-based, double-weight contact printing paper" - so what's a Silver Chloride Iodide paper?
"I assume that if people have not gotten Azo from us they haven't really tried it. Since we started handling the paper (to save it) we have been the only supplier of Grade 3. No other supplier has been willing to commit to the large minimum purchase required. And because I know of no one who only needs one grade of paper to print their negatives, I assume that they haven't really tried Azo. Apologies if my assumption is mistaken here."
I bought a fairly large batch from Freestyle when they were selling it off, as well as some from B&H and from a place in Chicago that had some they couldn't sell.
"Despite what Bergger says (and I am good personal friends with them) their contact paper is not a pure silver chloride paper. "
Michael, can you tell us exactly what the Azo emulsion contains, and how it differs from the Bergger emulsion? I can find no source that confirms that Azo is a "pure silver chloride" emulsion, whatever that means. Are you claiming that Azo contains no Iodides or other sensitizers of any kind? If so, I'd appreciate a referrence that confirms this assertion. I would also like to see a definition of "contact prinitng paper" that disqualifies the Bergger paper from inclusion. Thanks.
Jay
There is no definition of "contact printing paper." However, contact printing papers have usually been thought of as silver chloride papers. That is what they were historically. As I said, you can contact print on any paper. Does that make it a contact printing paper? By some definitions, yes it does. You can catch a baseball with a glove you wear in winter to keep your hands warm. Does that make it a "baseball glove"? By some definitions it probably does. But not mine. Not for baseball gloves or contact printing paper.
Silver chloride is a silver halide. The chloride is the sensitizer.
Iodide is used in film manufacture. It is the "fastest" halide. It is used to increase film speed, which is much, much faster than paper speed. Using iodide in paper manufacture makes the paper fast and changes the paper characteristics. Silver chloride seems to be the only halide that provides the long, smooth scale that is the hallmark of silver chloride contact printing paper.
Azo contains only silver chloride as the sensitizer. I do not have a reference handy.
Good for you, Paddy. When Freestyle stopped selling Azo they offered all they had left to us. We bought it and became dealers. Previously, Kodak had offered us a dealership, but we turned it down (lack of time) and contacted Freestyle and asked them to become dealers. (Kodak had told us someone had to do it and asked us to contact someone.) This was in 2000. In 2002 Freestyle decided to stop carrying it. (They had changed ownership and the new owners applied the 20-80 rule (20% of the products account for 80% of the profits). Azo was not in the 20%. So, reluctantly, we became Azo dealers.
Michael,
if I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that the presence of an iodode in the Bergger paper disqualifies it from being classified as a contact printing paper, according to your definition, and further, Azo contains only silver chloride, but you have no referrence to support your contention that Azo does not aslo contain some other sensitizing agents, such as iodides or bromides, etc. Would it be fair to say that you know no more about these emulsion formulae than what's printed on the packaging? Isn't it true that contact printing papers have traditionally been classified by their printing speeds, and not their specific emulsion formulae? I have seen many paper emulsion formulae that contain combinations of sensitizers, and are too slow for projection printing. Are these not "contact printing papers"? It seems that you are only interested in a definition for "contact printing paper" that excludes all papers but Azo, even though you don't have any authoritative information regarding the emulsion formula of Azo. Now that Azo has joined the ranks of discontinued papers, it seems that the Bergger paper might be among the few "contact printing papers" still in production, along with Centennial P.O.P., and perhaps Fomalux.
Jay
All of the contact printing papers, originally called "gaslight" paper because they were exposed by gaslight, including Convira, Haloid, Velox, and the many others that once existed were all silver chloride only. They were, as Azo is, of a very slow speed. The Bergger paper is a far faster paper.
No reference. I am a photographer, not a scientist, nor a scholar. I do have the information somewhere among my many technical books, but have no time to do research. But you, or anyone else doesn't have to take my word for it or believe what I say. You can call any paper whatever you want to call it. Those who have used silver chloride paper, however, do know the difference between it and papers that are not so constituted. I respond so that those who haven't used silver chloride paper know that there is a difference. And there is a difference. Some may find the Bergger paper preferable to Azo. But it is not the same and prints on it do not have the same characteristics as the paper that Weston and Adams, when he made contact prints, used--that depth of tone, long scale, and glowing presence. When printed well, of course. I have seen bad prints on Azo, so you still have to know how to print when using it.
Jay: "Would it be fair to say that you know no more about these emulsion formulae than what's printed on the packaging?"
No, that wouldn't be fair to say.
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