Ending Film camera sales + print fading challenge

[paulr]

I agree with everyone who says making a good digital print is hard, but I still think this misses the more important point. If a tool came along that made it easy, this would take nothing away from anyone.

The mechanics of writing a symphony are complex; the mechanics of writing a blues song are simple. Mastery of one or the other says absolutely nothing about the value of what you have to say. The composer John Williams is an impressive technician compared with bluesman Robert Johnson (who probably only learned three chords his entire life). But Williams does nothing besides rip off Wagner and Mahler, while Johnson plays what's in his soul. Musicians and critics revere Johnson, while they make fun of Williams. Which in the end makes all his skill and knowledge seem kind of sad. It's too bad he didn't put it to use for something real.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

You know, talk is cheap, Jorge. Take up my challenge. Show us your credentials and exhibition history.

What happened with the "final product is what matters?"....Do I need to teach a subject to know its capabilities? Furthermore, just because you teach it does it mean is good? No on both counts. But then the final product is what matters, here is your chance to showcase your exceptional expertise, to show all of us how much more control you have and finally shut me up once and for all......what are you afraid of?

I know why the printing tech wont take me on given what I have seen of his work, but I am surprised at your reluctance. You have some nice work, you have printed hundreds of prints for show, what is the problem? Are your credentials that you teach a workshop a few times a year? Is this what I am supposed to be impressed with? You have all these impressive credentials, prove it!

C'mon Butzi, once and for all shut me up.....

Paulr, I hope you are not equating sitting on environmental hearings and working in the waste disposal and environmental remediation field for 15 years. Did I say just cameras Paul? What about your printer, your computer you keep updating every 3 years, your extra memory. All of this is far more damaging that the chips made for 35 mm cameras.

As to the effluent from commercial activities, this is far different than what the printing tech implied in his ignorant comment about household darkroom chemistry. Let me remind you that the EPA made effluents from household streams exempt from regulation precisely because they dont represent any problems for treatment. As a chemist I know far better than you the effects of the chemistry in bacterial breakdown, and I will tell you that with exception of the fixer, the rest of the chemicals are in fact beneficial for bacteriological breakdown.

Printing tech, I am no more clueless than someone pretending their ink jet posters will last more than a few years... ;-) But then again seeing your work I know your tier level in the wedding industry. I am not surprised now why you call your prints "paltinum" toned chromira, I am sure you hope the name will wow them....not the work.

[Paul Butzi]

What happened with the "final product is what matters?

Ah, yes, another attempt to change the subject.

Look, Jorge, you're the one who started admonishing people 'Stay away from things you know nothing about'.

I'm thinking that when it comes to the relative difficulty of learning to use traditional photographic materials and digital photographic materials, you don't know what you're talking about.

So prove me wrong. Show us your credentials and exhibition record.

[Michael Gordon]

here is your chance to showcase your exceptional expertise, to show all of us how much more control you have and finally shut me up once and for all......what are you afraid of?

Fer chrissakes, Jorge, you sound like a twelve year old. Every time I see your name in a thread, it's in an antagonistic and defensive tone. Your "inkjet poster" schtick is growing quite old, and so is your argumentativeness. If photography is this stressful for you, I recommend baking or needlepoint.

[Brian Ellis]

Paul - I had to grin when I read your question. As I'm sure you know, my numbers were approximations. But if the 90% number is accurate I'd say unsharp masking took me maybe a half a percentage point further. It didn't make a "knock your socks off" difference but for some prints, especially those with a lot of important shadow detail, I thought it made a subtle but noticeable improvement. I never became an expert at it, the method I used was taught by John Sexton and was considerably simpler than Howard Bond's method. I used it sparingly, partly because it was pretty hard for me to stike the right balance in making it effective without also making its use obvious.

[Brian Ellis]

paulr - You're certainly right. My point wasn't that digital was better because it was harder. I was just relating my own experience with traditional and digital because it was the opposite of what someone else said or implied about the relative difficulty of the two methods. I learned a long time ago that if I show a print and start talking about how difficult it was to make - had to get up at 3 a.m., hiked ten miles in snow, hung from my toes upside down from the edge of a cliff with my 8x10 camera to get the picture - I'll see a lot of yawns. Nobody cares about how hard it was to make a photograph and rightfully so, a mediocre photograph that was hard to make is still a mediocre photograph.

[Jonathan Brewer]

'It's a misconception to think that back in the days when all things were made by hand, most people could afford to have them. They couldn't.'............................................................When I was small kid, my father took along while he shopped for a car, we stopped by the Mercedes showroom, at that time you could buy a handmade Mercedes sportscar for $5600.00, this was less than a Cadillac, Mercedes weren't always prohibitively expensive, now MF and some LF gear which have traditionally 'pay thru the nose' are dirt cheap, just a short while back, two weeks ago I believe, one of my lenses, the Mamiya RB 100-200W (used to retail for $4000.00) sold on e-bay for $568.00 NEW!!! I already have that lens or I would have bid on this one.

A lot of precision film gear is going for nowhere near what it use to sell, and once they're sold time will pass and this won't come around again, nobody will ever make this gear like it was made up until now, perception is everything, some folks look at the downside/this to be the death of film, I see it as a blessing for folks who're financially challenged to pick up some fine gear at nowhere near what it use to see.

Who cares who stops selling film gear, there are hundreds of film cameras on the planet, they're well made to last forever, I've got more than a dozen of them, and live in the same city w/two technicians who can fix all of them, so anybody like me is set for life, cameras is not the issue, it's two things, film and technicians to fix the gear.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Exactly Butzi, the printing tech was talking about environmental impact, something he knows nothing about and which is far different than photography (of which he knows little too). Now, do I have to give you the number of exhibitions and magazines I have been published to prove my credibility? Why is that? If you are such a great exhibited photographer, with such a wealth of work of such great quality, then I would have thought that if a nobody like me told you they know why they did not choose ink jet posters and can prove it to you by comparing with your prints, you would have been so confident in your process that shutting me up would have been an easy thing to do.

As I told you, I dont have to explain myself, give your proof that I know what I am talking about or submit my CV for your approval. All I have to do is put one of my prints right next to one of yours and let it speak. You are not willing to do that, that in itself is very telling.

[Paul Butzi]

As I told you, I dont have to explain myself, give your proof that I know what I am talking about or submit my CV for your approval. All I have to do is put one of my prints right next to one of yours and let it speak. You are not willing to do that, that in itself is very telling.

No, the issue is not whether your prints are better or worse than mine. The issue is whether you know what you're talking about with regards to the relative difficulty of learning to use traditional materials and learning to use digital materials.

Stop trying to change the subject, and just tell us what your credentials are with regards to your pronouncements about the relative difficulty of learning to use traditional materials and digital materials.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

The issue is whether you know what you're talking about with regards to the relative difficulty of learning to use traditional materials and learning to use digital materials.

No, the issue is whether I know enough about making ink jet posters and being able to choose to follow a different process based in this knowledge. The best proof that I can offer is with the "final product." It really does not take a mental giant to learn about raster image process programs, monitor calibration programs, working with layers and masks in PS, etc, etc.

Content versus content it is impossible to say that your print or mine is better, it would all depend of whom we would send the print, but if we are going to constrain ourselves to the process and having the knowledge to make the best decisions, then the best proof is the print. You want me to explain myself to you, I dont have to do that, you are nobody to demand my CV. All I am telling you is I know enough about ink jet printing to be able to make a judgment, and based on that judgment I am confident on my results. Are you?