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Thread: Ending Film camera sales + print fading challenge

  1. #21

    Ending Film camera sales + print fading challenge

    Well, see, you assume that I know nothing about ink jet printing or how to use Photoshop, as usual your assumption is wrong.

    You claimed that 'learning to control real photographic materials is harder".

    I'm asking you how you know.

    Show me the credentials. In fact, show me credentials that demonstrate that you actually, via first hand experience, are familiar with the difficulty of learning of both traditional photographic materials, and digital photographic materialsl.

    Have you been teaching how to use both? Have you been using both, extensively, to produce work for public display? Have you produced a considerable quantity of work using both (Let's be charitable and call 'considerable quantity' something on the order of hundreds of prints which you'd be willing to hang in a public show. Or, if you prefer, several years of hanging shows with work done both traditionally and digitally.

    I await your exibition record and credentials.

  2. #22

    Ending Film camera sales + print fading challenge


    See my post above. Jorge has already answered your questions with his previous posts. ;-)

  3. #23

    Ending Film camera sales + print fading challenge

    LOL....ah Paul, you assume your opinion matters enough to me to show you my "credentials". OTOH I dont need to make 100 prints to know how well a project works, one is enough. I am sorry to see you dont have this ability....

    Printing tech, I saw some of your wedding shots.....I now know why you are hesitant to post any shots here... ;-)

  4. #24

    Ending Film camera sales + print fading challenge

    Really Jorge? Considering my web site is not yet up and running, the only photos I can think of online may be from a friend from high school after being handed a disposable camera at her wedding and being "hired" on site ;-)

    Great swing on topic changing. Like Paul, I'm still waiting to see how you can be experienced in digital printing and PS, and at the same time be the most ignorant person about it. We're waiting.....

  5. #25

    Ending Film camera sales + print fading challenge

    uh huh...!

    But you know, talk is cheap. You have my challenge, and I gladly extend it to Butzi. I will put any of my pt/pd prints against your ink jet posters, I know why I did not choose the ink jet route and/or digital negatives, do you? are you as sure and confident of yourselves and your art?

    Hell I will even let you choose who judges them.... :-)

  6. #26

    Ending Film camera sales + print fading challenge


    Here we go again. Whenever you're cornered, you got back and try a stab at some old thread. This one is easy Jorge.....stop trying to change the topic and answer the question.

    How can you be both an expert and yet be ignorant? You said it....we didn't.

    So, it appears you're either clueless, or a liar. I'll leave it up to you to choose.

  7. #27

    Join Date
    Dec 1997
    Baraboo, Wisconsin

    Ending Film camera sales + print fading challenge

    I spent a lot of time learning to make silver prints in a darkroom and I've spent a lot of time learning to print digitally. The big difference for me has been that with traditional silver printing I probably got about 90% as good as I was ever going to get from a technical standpoint in the first year or so and I certainly learned all the necessary techniques that first year (except for unsharp masking). Almost all of the time after the first year or so was spent trying to gain that elusive extra 10% of improvement. Plus a lot of the improvement over the years didn't take any effort in the sense of studying complex subject matter and learning complex techniques, it was more a matter of learning from experience (and from attending workshops by people like John Sexton and Bruce Barnbaum) how to better apply the techniques I already knew (with the exception of unsharp masking, which I didn't learn until after I had been printing seriously for maybe five years).

    Learning to print digitally has been much different and much harder. It took a lot of study and a lot of effort to even make a respectable print and it's taking a whole lot more time and study and learning new things to even approach making an excellent print or feeling that I'm anywhere close to knowing all I need to know. When someone talks about digital printing in terms of pushing a few buttons I know they've never done it seriously. After about five years of off and on effort I'm still studying new books, still learning new techniques, and I think (or hope) I'm improving all the time and will continue to improve as long as I keep at it.

    Alt processes are a different matter. Some are pretty easy to do reasonably well - cyanotype and vanDyke brown come to mind as two that weren't overly difficult. Gum was much more difficult. I've never tried platinum but I'm sure it's much more difficult as well. So I'm not comparing digital printing with those processes, only with traditional silver printing.
    Brian Ellis
    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you do criticize them you'll be
    a mile away and you'll have their shoes.

  8. #28

    Ending Film camera sales + print fading challenge

    LOL....ah Paul, you assume your opinion matters enough to me to show you my "credentials".

    Well, I admit I'm not surprised that a guy with no credentials at all refuses to show them.

    You know, talk is cheap, Jorge. Take up my challenge. Show us your credentials and exhibition history.

  9. #29
    Abuser of God's Sunlight
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    brooklyn, nyc

    Ending Film camera sales + print fading challenge

    " this case you are talking about something you know nothing about."


    I sat in on a number of environmental hearings in both Colordo Springs and Providence that were both concerned with photographic silver thiosulfate in the waste water. In Colorado Springs it became a crisis issue because the concentration of silver ions grew high enough at several points (this was in 1989 and 1990) to kill off the seeded bacteria in the sewage treatment plant. The result each time was that tons of untreated sewage, silver and all, overflowing into the environment.

    The study that was sponsored showed the sources of the silver ions to be, in the following order:

    1. Dental and medical darkrooms

    2. School darkrooms

    3. Minilabs

    4. Home darkrooms

    Larger commercial labs were not a major contributor because they tended to comply with recovery laws and to employ better technology.

    As a chemist, I trust you know that chemical effluent can be damaging to the environment even if it is in theory biodegradeable. If you doubt this, I'll be happy to send you some research, if for no other reason than to encourage you not to dump silver ions down the drain.

    Your main point is irrelevent, though, because it presumes that traditional cameras are free of microchips. We were specifically talking about consumer snapshot cameras (the type that are rapidly being replaced with digital ones). These, whether point and shoot or SLR, contain microchips, circuit boards, and batteries, just like the digital cameras. These consumer cameras require chips to be manufactured in addition to requiring the constant use of chemicals over their life.

    As far as how easy it is to use photoshop for photography, I'm curious to know if you've ever used it to make high quality prints (and I realize I'm tempting you to jump on me with cirucular reasoning like "you can't make high quality prints with photoshop"). I ask this because I personally used the program for 10 years as a designer before using it for my photography (for anything beyond making proofs). I pretty much had to go back to school. The learning curve was a steep one.

  10. #30

    Ending Film camera sales + print fading challenge


    I'm just curious about your experience with unsharp masking and silver printing.
    My question is, what fraction of that elusive 10% do you think masking might have covered?

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