optics question

[Pere Casals]

There are image makers that used the film holder borders as part of the image.

I do that when I can (https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592...posted-public/ , https://www.flickr.com/photos/125592...posted-public/)

...it is the way I love the more, but sometimes you want to shot from certain point because perspective and then you need a particular focal to frame like you want, say 163mm, but you have a 150... so single choice is using 150mm and cropping a bit... or not framing like one would like.

We can try to get best composition without cropping and with the constrains we have, or perhaps we can priorize a composition enhacement by cropping or changing aspect ratio.

I'd love to hear your definition of that -- but asking for definitions and clarity sometimes seems to be another NO-NO, much like CROPPING.

In reality, I realized that in the Ken Rockwell's web site, every scene may have an ideal aspect ratio. We can use or not rules from painters, we may want some master lines of the image ending in some corner, for example... as we can have some constrains in the composition a non standard aspect ratio may be wanted.

I've seen great photographers following those basic composition rules for a shot and breaking all rules for another shot.


The good rule is that we can follow the composition rules or not, and the other rule is that we can crop or not. So the good rule is freedom.

[xkaes]

The good rule is that we can follow the composition rules or not, and the other rule is that we can crop or not. So the good rule is freedom.

It would have been simpler to say "There is no definition".

[Pere Casals]

It would have been simpler to say "There is no definition".

Well, it is difficult to speak about beauty, expression or art, but there are entire philosophy books that are full of wisdom about it.

IMHO what are named aesthetic rules or definitions should be named aesthetic tools, or aesthetic resources... IMHO a canonic rule is not an rule itself, but an aesthetic resource that works for some people in some era, or for all and forever.

[Drew Wiley]

If you were a purist, you'd crop to the Golden Mean, and then very subtly curve your picture frame mouldings so that if anyone looked at them edgewise, they'd look straight even though they aren't. But I certainly wouldn't recommend trying everything the Greeks did.

[Bernice Loui]

Another way to "look" at this. Artistic expression can be built on foundations found in Nature such as the Fibonacci Sequence. This has been used by many artist over a very long time. Example:
https://www.markmitchellpaintings.co...c-composition/

Also found in music and more:
http://blog.dubspot.com/fibonacci-sequence-in-music/

There is much photographers can learn from painters and similar. IMO, our roots are from Nature and the ways of Nature is within our being. To accept, realize and form symbiotic relationships with the way Nature really is with goals of artistic expression can result in a proper foundation for effective artistic expression.

This 5x7 film image has been public for a while, it is framed to the film holder borders. No cropping, film processed then scanned with minimal alterations to the digitized image. Resulting image is not much different than viewed and expected at the ground glass when this image was made.
https://secure.meetupstatic.com/phot...337633232.jpeg


"Know what the rules and ways of Nature might be, that way both can work together to result in a symbiotic relationship of expression for both involved".

-Freedom comes with Responsibility.


Bernice

The good rule is that we can follow the composition rules or not, and the other rule is that we can crop or not. So the good rule is freedom.

[Bernice Loui]

There is more.. images are much about light and lighting beyond form and composition.


Bernice

[Pere Casals]

Interesting links! also I finally understood the Fibonacci Sequence in the chords...

There is more.. images are much about light and lighting beyond form and composition.
Bernice

Yes... masters always speak about light and almost never about lp/mm

In fact, lighting can critical to obtain depth sense, and this a valued feature when well managed, but not all arts have depth and volumes. An artist may work with depth or with its abscence.

I don't know if I'm wrong... but it looks to me that smaller formats are slightly more focused in composition than in LF. As in LF we have other aesthetic resources in play, like more selective DOF, plenty of movements and perspective control then sometimes composition may be relegated or directly avoided, this is obtaining a sound image while breaking "canonic" rules, just a thought, and of course it will depend on each author and on each image, I don't try to generalize, but I point what I see as certain tendence... not being able to say how weak or strong it is...

of course there are a lot of LF fotographs with completely elaborated compositions !!! just saying that I feel more proportion of sound images from LF that do not rely in elaborated composition than with smaller formats.

[Jim Jones]

. . . IMHO what are named aesthetic rules or definitions should be named aesthetic tools, or aesthetic resources... IMHO a canonic rule is not an rule itself, but an aesthetic resource that works for some people in some era, or for all and forever.

Perhaps most of the rules were formulated by analyzing iconic images. Such rules should not be universal commandments. For some, the rules control the photography. For others, it's the subject, not the rules, that is more important. Whatever sells best is the dominant guide for many successful photographers. What guidelines to follow depends on the photographer and the circumstances of each photograph. Likewise, the viewer can select rules, subject, technique, presentation, or even price tag when evaluating photographs. There are infinite paths to many goals. No one is wise enough to advise everyone how to do everything.

[Pere Casals]

Such rules should not be universal commandments.

of course...

Anyway some rules have been taught during centuries to painters and sculptors, forming a cultural substrate for today's visual arts.

IMHO the true importance of learning composition rules it that the learner (me...) gets aware of the effect of organizing lines, shapes, positions, shades, objects etc to promote expression of what we want to say.

In publicity test viewers are analyzed while exploring images and videos. Eye tracking hardware and software record the exploration path and the attention played in each spot. The sequence in what the image elements are discovered can build a narration...

I don't say at all that a photographer has to care about viewer's sight path (measurable with eye tracking) or not, just saying that there are techniques to make the viewer's eye expore an image in a certain way, and this may help a narrative.








https://blog.kissmetrics.com/eye-tracking-studies/


Also there are great studies for the change in the feelings of a viewer when viewing graphic structures, for example lines going to corners makes the viewer get relaxed...

I repeat... IMHO all that are available resources, that can be appreciated or not. And I've no doubt that a true artist can nail a sound composition intuitively, much better than following "rules"...

(Sorry for the off...)

[Bernice Loui]

Imager format size is irrelevant, same skill apply to any imaging system be they LF film, Roll film, Cinema, Analog video, Digital video, Digital still image camera or what ever..

The foundational skills, knowledge required to create expressive images applies regardless. It has been said among Artis, Musicians, Physicist and others in the world of Design.

Musicians practice for hours upon hours of monotonous scales and other instrument exercises beyond works of music specifically written to aid in the learning process with guidance from a master. At some point, the musician moves on from these times of toil to use these skills developed as a means of expression to audiences during their performances. This is when others decide if the musicians efforts and expression is agreeable or not.

Physicist develop mathematical, observational, critical thinking skills and more in their effort to figure out how stuff might be. These ideas-observations are then published for others to analyze, criticize, accept, discard. This is one path for growing the body of knowledge and wisdom of how Nature might actually be.

What has happened today with images, there are uncounted millions of images up loaded to numerous data servers each day. Many are buried by the sheer volume and weight of these images. This mass flooding of images dilutes the value of images that could convey a far deeper meaning.. Much like music and many other endeavors of human expression, it is a language. As with any language, time, effort and interest is required to learn it (or wiring one's brain in specific ways). If this language ability is deficient, then the deeper meaning of what a given language can express, share is discounted or muted.

Share two images made using a Canon M3 digital.
Boeing 737 wing & sun in-flight, Canon_EF wide angle zoom.



Thinker, Canon_FD 80-200mm zoom.



Bernice

but it looks to me that smaller formats are slightly more focused in composition than in LF