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Thread: optics question

  1. #61

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    Re: optics question

    In my opinion rules are guidelines to be learned and studied by the student. The working artist will still understand these rules and why they exist even when they no longer consciously think about them. The artist will also know when to break these rules. After all, the rules are merely guidelines meant to help them.

    I know this is a simple explanation but it pretty much says how I feel about it after going to school for art and learning rules. I also know that taking art classes at community college really helped my photography. But of course that is me and my opinion about it.

  2. #62

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    Re: optics question

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    The foundational skills, knowledge required to create expressive images applies regardless. It has been said among Artis, Musicians, Physicist and others in the world of Design.
    I agree with all you said, single thing is that while I also agree in that format is absolutely irrelevant to make or not great shots, it can happen that we want a look that it is unique in LF, to me an example of that is "Dovima with elephants". Avedon wanted LF for that, and IMHO he exploited very well LF look http://100photos.time.com/photos/ric...with-elephants




    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Gales View Post
    [I] The working artist will still understand these rules and why they exist even when they no longer consciously think about them. The artist will also know when to break these rules. After all, the rules are merely guidelines meant to help them.
    +1

  3. #63
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: optics question

    Not all of us admire Avedon's ostentatious corniness; but the choice of format was logical.

  4. #64

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    Re: optics question

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    Not all of us admire Avedon's ostentatious corniness; but the choice of format was logical.
    yes... regarding the choice of format, it is easy to imagine how it would look the same photograph if it had been made with MF or 35mm, and IMHO it would not compare to that LF shot. IMHO the LF greatness is in the length of the focal and aperture combined, the focus roll-off is impressively nice, surprisingly not used in the main subject, but in the paws and in the padding... thus rendering amazing space... at least it's what I feel...

    Of course Dovima w/e has a lot of other factors, just mentioning the format footprint I notice, beyond IQ...

  5. #65

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    Re: optics question

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernice Loui View Post
    Imager format size is irrelevant, same skill apply to any imaging system be they LF film, Roll film, Cinema, Analog video, Digital video, Digital still image camera or what ever..

    The foundational skills, knowledge required to create expressive images applies regardless. It has been said among Artis, Musicians, Physicist and others in the world of Design.

    Musicians practice for hours upon hours of monotonous scales and other instrument exercises beyond works of music specifically written to aid in the learning process with guidance from a master. At some point, the musician moves on from these times of toil to use these skills developed as a means of expression to audiences during their performances. This is when others decide if the musicians efforts and expression is agreeable or not.

    Physicist develop mathematical, observational, critical thinking skills and more in their effort to figure out how stuff might be. These ideas-observations are then published for others to analyze, criticize, accept, discard. This is one path for growing the body of knowledge and wisdom of how Nature might actually be.

    What has happened today with images, there are uncounted millions of images up loaded to numerous data servers each day. Many are buried by the sheer volume and weight of these images. This mass flooding of images dilutes the value of images that could convey a far deeper meaning.. Much like music and many other endeavors of human expression, it is a language. As with any language, time, effort and interest is required to learn it (or wiring one's brain in specific ways). If this language ability is deficient, then the deeper meaning of what a given language can express, share is discounted or muted.

    Share two images made using a Canon M3 digital.
    Boeing 737 wing & sun in-flight, Canon_EF wide angle zoom.
    Attachment 173268


    Thinker, Canon_FD 80-200mm zoom.
    Attachment 173269


    Bernice
    Bernice, I fully agree, and I hope that we can understand what I think is the "700 Lb gorilla" when using our "preferred" LF formats, is the loss of mobility when setting up an entire imaging "rig", as we don't have the advantage of a smaller handheld camera (that has the ability to "float" like a butterfly on a scene, shooting as it goes), but generally is weighted to the earth on it's tripod, likes a rectilinear, leveled projection (and is usually corrected to produce this), and one shot is usually the aim (as this is the time one ends up having)...

    So we should have an idea of (or discover) our pattern recognition (that was evolved culturally and personally over time) so we can recognize new possibilities (with our eye/brain), our response to this stimuli, then put our imaging device in front of our POV, fufill all of the technical minutiae, release at the moment, and bring it back home to produce enough to where that thin, flat projection finds a wall to hang on... We have the challenge to make our rig "invisible" to our eye/brain so we can see right through it, merely framing what we already see, or sometimes, to train the rig towards a scene and see what the camera finds (and pick up on it)... (Or allow the invisible to photograph itself somehow...)

    Beyond the "bling-bling" of techy gear, the root of what we do is based in thought, response, recognition, memory, communications, discovery, etc and like a writer, it's not just about words and letters on a page or screen, it's ideas that can communicate to others about what/why this moment in time has meaning...

    I hope a greater dialog can flourish here about the "music" we can make, rather than babble techy about the instruments...

    I encourage expanded discussions involving visual theory as a learning aid to developing mo/betta pattern recognition, finding/developing new ideas that open communications, moments that reveal new thought/directions, and shedding light on what we (or others) has been "unseen" (or at least bring what we know or discover to light)...

    Let's use our space here to figure out how to to expand and grow...

    Just some thoughts...

    Steve K

    (ps/ And why is this particular subject dangling off-thread, when this and other such discussions should have plenty of room to grow!?!! sk)

  6. #66

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    Re: optics question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Jones View Post
    For some, the rules control the photography. For others, it's the subject, not the rules, that is more important.
    Very well said. Exactly what I was trying to convey. Unfortunately, some of us -- perhaps more than we think -- prefer to live by rules (standards, guidelines, etc.). And some of us -- hopefully fewer than I think -- can't live without them.

  7. #67

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    Re: optics question

    Quote Originally Posted by LabRat View Post
    I hope a greater dialog can flourish here about the "music" we can make, rather than babble techy about the instruments...
    That would require people to think about the hard work that goes into actually making worthwhile art rather than relying on ex post facto mathematical inventions that seem to only exist to profitably delude people into believing that they only need to follow someone's patent 'formula' to become a 'great artist'...

    Same thing with pseudoscientific beliefs about developers or agitation patterns rather than doing the very small amount of practical work necessary to get an adequate exposure index & developing time(s).

    In my experience, the bigger the technical limitations, the better the work - one lens & an engaged/ enquiring mind will produce far better results than a whole case of lenses of every possible focal length owned by someone who knows every last specification of them & has not a clue or the willingness/ ability to use them to produce anything other than bland clichés.

  8. #68

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    Re: optics question

    Quote Originally Posted by xkaes View Post
    Very well said. Exactly what I was trying to convey. Unfortunately, some of us -- perhaps more than we think -- prefer to live by rules (standards, guidelines, etc.). And some of us -- hopefully fewer than I think -- can't live without them.
    My cousin and I were at the St. Louis Botanical Gardens many years ago. It was at the end of the day and the sun was starting to set. All of a sudden I started running. He followed not knowing why we were running. I ran up to these yellow and red tulips all lit up by the setting sun. They were planted in a diamond around a group of small green trees also planted in a diamond. Behind them was a building that had large mirrored glass windows. I quickly set up my 35mm Contax on my tripod with my 25mm Zeiss lens down low and a few inches from the first tulips.

    My cousin exclaimed, "You can't do that!". I asked why, fully knowing what his answer would be. He said, "You are putting your horizon line right in the middle of the photo!". I told him to look through my viewfinder and if he didn't like it, I wouldn't take the shot. He looked though the viewfinder and said take it.

    Yes, I broke a golden rule of art but there is so much going on in that photo that you don't even notice that the horizon line is smack dab center of the frame. The photograph is definitely not boring with those cool looking trees in the center of those fiery tulips. The cibachrome enlargement of that Kodachrome ASA 25 slide is matted and framed and hanging in my house today.

  9. #69

    Re: optics question

    This image by Richard Avedon could have been done on any imager, image format size. Creating this image using sheet film was a choice.

    During this era of photographic image making if the image creator wanted the highest possible still image quality, sheet film was the go-to choice. Also being a conceived and crafted image, the choice of using a view camera would not have been difficult.

    As for this Avedon image, note how the model's dress flows in place of the elephants leg. Her and the elephants leg is essentially centered at the bottom of this image resulting in a some what symmetrical image, curvature of the elephants trunk with the model's pose adds circular form interest to this image. The film holder borders serve as a visual container. Variations of geometric forms found in Nature, no?

    The lighting is essentially flat from a large diffused light source. This simplifies the image, denying the potential illusion of depth effects that could be achieved by using more direct and controlled lighting beyond the single large diffused light source.. This is part of Avedon's style. A change in visual presentation after a generation of crafted lighting by the previous generation of Hollywood portrait masters.

    Another example of using geometric forms common in Nature as part of the means of artistic expression.


    Bernice



    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    I agree with all you said, single thing is that while I also agree in that format is absolutely irrelevant to make or not great shots, it can happen that we want a look that it is unique in LF, to me an example of that is "Dovima with elephants". Avedon wanted LF for that, and IMHO he exploited very well LF look http://100photos.time.com/photos/ric...with-elephants






    +1
    Last edited by Bernice Loui; 3-Jan-2018 at 02:17.

  10. #70

    Re: optics question

    Rules, Regulations, Laws might not the same as the way Nature really is.

    Rules, Regulations, Laws are often created, enforced, interpreted by human beings often out of their individual intellect. This is more an extension of individual or collective ideology, beliefs with aspects of individual or collective personality-mind set and life experiences mixed in. Quite subjective often contrived with an agenda in many ways.

    -Consider how the color white became a rule and symbol for purity?


    The way Nature really is applies to all regardless of how one wants to believe, interpret, enforce, accept, deny and .... There is no choice regarding how it affects nouns within Nature's grasp.

    -Gravity tends to have a uniform affect on nouns including human beings taking a step off of and out of an Empire State Building's window. Exceptions would be if that human being has a external means to oppose the effects of Gravity.


    As for creative artistic expression. This is difficult unless the artistically and creative individual has a proper and stable support system in place that fosters artistic creativity. Essentially, this would be one of the foundational elements for creative artistic expressions and endeavors. This idea is similar to knowing what it means to apply known forms in Nature in the creative endeavor.


    As with Music, Paintings, Photographic images and much more the relationship between creator and audience needs to be down within a mutually understood language. Without this intimate connection, the communications between creator and audience would be difficult at best with mis-communiation and mis-understanding common.



    Bernice




    Quote Originally Posted by xkaes View Post
    Very well said. Exactly what I was trying to convey. Unfortunately, some of us -- perhaps more than we think -- prefer to live by rules (standards, guidelines, etc.). And some of us -- hopefully fewer than I think -- can't live without them.
    Last edited by Bernice Loui; 3-Jan-2018 at 02:14.

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