Ilford Galerie Fiber dev'd w/ Ansco 130, Neutol WA, or Dektol, thoughts?

[bob carnie]

A good friend and mentor of mine pretty much only uses Dektol. I can't fault him for it and the prints looks good. Yes, there's always an element of "silver bullet" searching I suppose but I do love to try different things. It's fun. I do absolutely think my prints with Ilford Warmtone dev'd in Ansco 130 look objectively "better" than my Ilford MGIV dev'd in Dektol. There's clearly a difference. Also MGIV + Dektol is definitely a bit on the cool side in paper tone. Neutol WA gives it a bit more neutrality. Of course all this is meaningless since MGIV isn't made anymore, but I haven't used any Classic to compare (I have two boxes on the shelf though once I finish up this last box of MGIV).

Do you think Dektol is just the perfect paper developer? Do you think there is nothing better?

No not necessarily , but I love PMK Pyro and many hear say it stinks compared to Pyrocat.. I just am a type of person that once I find something I can work with I stick with it.. Also as a professional printer you can understand that my inventory needs are off the charts .

[bob carnie]

I do usually tone with selenium, but not to completion.

When you say "usual green tinge," what does that mean? I do not want green. Which part causes green tinges?

I actually like the green tinge Sal is talking about, probably why I like Ilford Warmtone Lith prints... they are green untoned.

[Gudmundur Ingolfsson]

Ansco 130 is a favorite. I recently used it to develop Ilford Multigrade FB cooltone with great results. Very nice cootone, long development times possible without fogging and the 130 almost lasts for ever.

[Corran]

Yes, I can understand you have very different needs from the business needs perspective Bob. If I had to pick one thing today to use forever it'd be that Warmtone/130 combo. But I haven't tried that many combinations of paper/developer to have a broad perspective on the relative differences or pros/cons.

[Bruce Barlow]

Galerie is going to look a little warm in Ansco 130. Pretty much everything does. It will be more neutral in Dektol, and benefits from about 2 minutes of selenium toning at about a 1:20 dilution. If you compare two Dektol prints, one in the toner and one outside, when the toning print starts to change color, the untoned print will look a little green. That's when you know the toned print is cooked enough. Much more time in the toner and it will turn a garish purple. Blecch (a technical term).

That said, when I tested paper and developers Galerie was always near the top. Couldn't beat Forte Polygrade V, but on the other hand Galerie is still made.

Mix a gallon of Dektol and split into 20oz. Coke bottles filled to the brim and it will never die. Single-serving portions...

No experience with Neutol. Sorry.

I actually have the prints, 130 and Dektol, Galerie Grade 2, toned and untoned. Come look. We'll eat lobster.

[bob carnie]

Yes, I can understand you have very different needs from the business needs perspective Bob. If I had to pick one thing today to use forever it'd be that Warmtone/130 combo. But I haven't tried that many combinations of paper/developer to have a broad perspective on the relative differences or pros/cons.

Well its not only a business perspective... its all about picking something and working with it.. For example I make lith prints using Ilford Warmtone... most lith printers historically will say Ilford Warmtone does not lith.. Its a matter of working with materials and seeing how to manipulate your base materials .

Another Example... Historically most printers will say that Pt Pd prints do not have a great DMax,, but if you take it one step further and add gum overs Pt Pd prints can exhibit the same Dmax as Silver.

I have never used Lodima paper for example,,, many people say its the best paper since sliced bread... its all subjective... Ilford Matt paper is to flat,, but tone it with sepia and look again..

I am always surprised by what I see.

[Corran]

Thanks for your thoughts Bruce. With the Dektol I've always mixed the stock gallon and then separated out 1/3 of it into a different gallon bottle and filled it up for a 1:2 dilution. The stock sits until I run through the diluted gallon (I use a gallon for 16x20 or larger prints), and then move on to the next 1/3 gallon. Works for me - this last Dektol I mixed back in March so I get about 3 months per 1/3 gallon. And thanks for the offer, if I was closer I'd probably take you up on that!

I was just talking to somebody recently about Lodima. I would love to try it, especially for contact printing 8x10. Maybe one day.

I wish I had more time/money to try a variety of toners. I have some sepia here I've been too skittish to try on anything. I don't like hard sepia toning but just a little is fine. I have a print from last night that is a little dark - might be perfect for toning...I'll have to put it on the list of things to do when I don't have any new prints to make.

For now I'm tapping my foot waiting for the mail to come with the paper so I can get going!

[Corran]

To somewhat answer my own question...

Both Neutol WA and Ansco 130 gave functionally identical paper tone, that being slightly warm. After toning in selenium (1:15 for 6 min) the warmish tone got a bit more pronounced. Blacks were not significantly affected. Need to see how much the paper dries down. The Neutol is slightly lower contrast as is normal.

Didn't test Dektol because my batch died and it takes a while for fresh mixed to come down to room temp. Probably won't bother.

The Grade 2 paper I bought is a bit softer than I expected. Probably should go with G3 instead and use the Neutol if it's too contrasty. However I am not right now seeing anything significantly better or worse than from VC Warmtone so maybe there's no reason to use the Galerie paper, for me anyway. I am not an experienced printer at all as of yet so perhaps the subtleties of the paper is lost on me.

I can still try some things like sepia or other toning. I have a box of copper toner here too...

Thanks for all of your input.

[Sal Santamaura]

...When you say "usual green tinge," what does that mean? I do not want green. Which part causes green tinges?

Most FB papers, in most developers, come out with a slight green cast that's traditionally been neutralized via selenium toning. It's something I'm very sensitive to; others might not mind or notice it.

To evaluate FB black and white print color, I always use sunlight coming in a window, diffused by white blinds/shutters and white walls/ceiling, on a cloudless day. Other illuminants can be less revealing of subtle casts. It's instructive to have several types of paper, processed in various developers, toned and untoned, along with an assortment of mat boards, side-by-side. The differences jump right out at me. YMMV.

[Corran]

I almost always selenium tone so I suppose I don't see that on my finished prints, which is good as that would annoy me!

Some more thoughts - I made several 8x10 contact prints recently on Warmtone. I made a couple more prints of that negative on Galerie. They aren't quite dry but comparing them the midtones have a bit more separation in some areas it seems. However this is very slight and the comparison is really not apples to apples as this Galerie is glossy while the Warmtone is semi-gloss. There's also just a tiny bit more highlight "air." This negative is tough because the highlights are a bit off the scale. The Warmtone print required a lot of burning to get them down into the tonal range. The Galerie handled it a bit easier and needed less burning, just about a stop.

I kind of want to "standardize" on a paper but I am starting to understand more why people have a variety of papers to print on for different negatives/conditions.