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Thread: Glue to re-seat dry wood joinery in LF frame?

  1. #1

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    Glue to re-seat dry wood joinery in LF frame?

    I've started an Ansco 8x10 fixer and the fold down rail joins are pulling apart.

    The wood and channels are old, dry, and straight so the fitment is great.

    What glue is recommended and strong enough for LF frames to clamp the parts back together and restore rigidity?

    TIA

  2. #2
    Jac@stafford.net's Avatar
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    Re: Glue to re-seat dry wood joinery in LF frame?

    Do you have wood clamps?

  3. #3

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    Re: Glue to re-seat dry wood joinery in LF frame?

    I bought my AA from an auction where the only photo was of it sitting at the top of the basement steps, folded. No one else was stupid enough to bid on it. When I got it, it was in pretty good condition, except nearly every glue joint had come apart, probably from living in the damp basement. I spent a day and put it back together, and it's been happy since.

    The original would have been hide glue--basically glue-quality Jello melted in water, very thickly. Elmer's or yellow glue will not stick to hide glue with any degree of reliably, so those are out. Liquid hide glue is NOT something to use--just believe me. Other glues are too messy and/or overkill for the work, in my opinion. On the other hand, hot hide is very easy to use, and your joints won't even need to be cleaned.

    If necessary, you can assemble something like that flat on a piece of waxed paper on a table. Get the glue in the joint, squeeze it tight by hand wipe off what squirts out, then lay it flat, make sure it's pushed up tight and square, and walk away. The most important part of a job like this is not getting anything twisted, and laying it flat on a flat surface to dry assures that. Clamps, carelessly used, can pull anything out of square and plane. Check with a file card that it's put together square, and Bob's your uncle, as they say.

    If you can find a violin or guitar shop, they can be talked into giving you a couple of thimbles-full of glue crystals; no need to buy a whole pound for a one-time job. If you really are going to do it, send me your address, and I'll send you some in an envelope. I gather it looks like raw heroin or something, so there shouldn't be a problem in the mail. :-)

  4. #4
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: Glue to re-seat dry wood joinery in LF frame?

    Michael really knows what he's talking about. I've seen some of the wooden items he works on. Some are irreplaceable and priceless. Think Stradivarius.....
    "Why can't we all just get along?" President Dale, Mars Attacks

  5. #5

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    Re: Glue to re-seat dry wood joinery in LF frame?

    Sounds like good advice.
    It's the model without the front tilts, just the shifts. I got lucky and this one has 3 backs, 8x10 + 5x7 + 4x5, and a bit unlucky because only the 8x10 ground glass is complete. But glass is easy to grind...
    I'll wager that I can source some glue crystals from a local luthier and not have to worry about ATF raiding my mailbox

    PS: I do have an appropriate clamp, square, and ridiculously flat and stable granite countertop to set up the curing properly.

    Thanks!

  6. #6

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    Re: Glue to re-seat dry wood joinery in LF frame?

    Also check woodworking supply or piano repairs shops for hide glue.

    P.S. THAT's what heroine looks like? I had no idea!!!!!

  7. #7
    Milton Tierney's Avatar
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    Re: Glue to re-seat dry wood joinery in LF frame?

    I have done a lot of woodworking over the years. My first choice for difficult projects is 5min epoxy. If possible you can reinforce with stainless steel screws.

  8. #8
    Milton Tierney's Avatar
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    Re: Glue to re-seat dry wood joinery in LF frame?

    Oh , don't forget to use clamps.

  9. #9

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    Re: Glue to re-seat dry wood joinery in LF frame?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick13 View Post
    I've started an Ansco 8x10 fixer and the fold down rail joins are pulling apart.

    The wood and channels are old, dry, and straight so the fitment is great.

    What glue is recommended and strong enough for LF frames to clamp the parts back together and restore rigidity?

    TIA
    Follow the advice to use hot hide glue. In all probability that's what's already in there. New hot hide glue remelts and "reactivates" old, dried hide glue. If the parts fit well, you will not have to use clamps. Yes, hide glue is basically jello. Very bad-smelling jello. Those of us who use it grow to like its odor. If you complain, I'll tell you to use fish glue!

    Do NOT, repeat, do NOT use epoxy. If you want an explanation, I'll explain, but just take my word at this point. Do NOT try to use any screws.

    While hot hide glue is the best and actually the simplest material to use, it does require a little learning curve. You do not want to use it for the first time on your project. You need to do a trial first.

    The glue comes either finely ground or as "pearls." It does not look like heroin. (That's heroin, not heroine). It's amber and coarse like semolina flour. Heroin is white and fine. Don't ask me how I know this.

    You pour a small quantity into a little cup or a dish and pour in enough water to cover it by at least an inch. Wait overnight, the glue will absorb all the water it can and swell in the process. Pour off all the excess water and place the cup in a crock pot that has enough water in it to just allow the cup to float. You need to use a thermometer to monitor the glue. 140-145 degrees is good. Don't let it get above 150-155 (you won't like the smell!). Woodworkers have glue pots for this purpose. A crock pot works just as well and costs $15 at Walmart. Glue pots cost $150. My $15 crockpot has lasted 30 years.

    At 140 degrees the glue will turn into a slightly runny consistency. It should run off a stick slowly but freely without forming globs. Use a small stiff brush or a long matchstick-like piece of wood as an applicator and spread a little on two small pieces of wood. Rub them slowly together, back and forth until they're hard to keep moving. Then let them alone until the joint cools to room temperature. They'll stay bonded forever.

    You'll learn that you have to work quickly, but don't hurry. Any glue that drips can be nicely peeled away when it partially cools to a rubbery state. Use a razor blade to slice it at the joint first that you're peeling it away from, or you'll pull the glue out of the joint! It will come off the wood like rubber cement, leaving no trace. Dried, it completely cleans from hands and clothing with warm water.

    If you want a demonstration of its tenacity, its adhesion qualities, spread some on the surface of a piece of glass. As it dries it will shrink. And it will ultimately pull shards of glass from the surface of the glass as it contracts. In fact, this ability is used in certain "art" projects to give a distinctive look of such glass surfaces. The effect is completely random and unpredictable.

    Be careful with dried splashes of hide glue. It is as hard as glass and the edges can be just as sharp.

    Remember, some horse gave his all for your glue project!

    Have fun.

    Ask questions.

    Rich

  10. #10

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    Re: Glue to re-seat dry wood joinery in LF frame?

    A local Rockler woodworking supply shop has what you need...

    Steve K

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