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Thread: 6400 dpi 4x5 scanning problem, Epson V800 Vuescan

  1. #11

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    Re: 6400 dpi 4x5 scanning problem, Epson V800 Vuescan

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    How a scanner interacts with grain can be an important issue, whether or not more scene detail can be extracted from the film. My flatbed isn't an Epson, but scanning at higher resolutions with my scanner leads to a better grain rendition, even though I doubt my large format camera/lens system can achieve the corresponding level of detail on film. So for instance, you might scan a high resolution test target. It gives you a max dpi for your scanner. You might be tempted to scan at that setting, but while that might give you the smallest file size that'll lead to the maximum number of bars resolved on the target, it may not give you the best scan for other reasons, such as grain size...
    IMHO grain depiction can be very important for 35mm with all films, and for MF with cubic film like TX and HP5, but IMHO that interaction has little sense for LF. You have a Cezanne, IIRC, 4x5 is scanned at 2000 dpi as a maximum with the Cezanne, and sure you have no problem with that. It would be interesting to test that with the Cezanne: if there is a difference because grain depiction with normal scanning (2000dpi) compared with stitching strips (8000dpi). This may also depend on film, perhaps depending on tabular vs cubic...

    Also it should be pointed that (in the past) some Nikon LS users were complaining about too much scanner resolution that was aliased with grain...

    With the Cezanne "pixel size" can be adjusted because the zoom lens, it should be a good platform to see grain vs pixel aliasing...

  2. #12
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
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    Re: 6400 dpi 4x5 scanning problem, Epson V800 Vuescan

    I've done those tests.... Grain can matter with LF. A friend produces large prints in a tradional darkroom from 8x10. With some films; development, and printing grain is clearly visible.
    "Why can't we all just get along?" President Dale, Mars Attacks

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    Re: 6400 dpi 4x5 scanning problem, Epson V800 Vuescan

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    I've done those tests.... Grain can matter with LF. A friend produces large prints in a tradional darkroom from 8x10. With some films; development, and printing grain is clearly visible.
    Of course you can see TXP/HP5 grain in a x8 enlargement at reading distance, but x8 from 8x10 this is a 2m print, normally 2m prints are not seen at 1 foot, but from 1m far at least, so grain structure cannot be seen, just tonality, for "normal" viewing distance. A x5 enlargement (1m from 8x10) from TMX/D100 won't show grain at reading distance.

    IMHO if one wants a good grain depiction, better to use an enlarger.

  4. #14
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    Re: 6400 dpi 4x5 scanning problem, Epson V800 Vuescan

    Have you ever seen a photo show in a museum (or a gallery) were people don't get as close as they can to the print? I've seen my friend's large prints in a number of shows. In each case I looked at the print both from a few steps away and up close. Looking around the museum, I wasn't alone in that practice.

    Back to scanning. Make tests at a number of different resolutions. Decide on the largest size you could conceivably print. Then make some test prints at size, or, at least, make 8x10 portions of images such that they correspond to how big that area would be if the whole print was made. Put the prints up in good light, and judge for yourself. Even better: Do a double blind test and have a bunch of people look at the prints.... Ok. That's a fair amount of work. But it's much less than having to go back and scan, spot, and process your files more than once because you later realized that you could've gotten a better file scanning in a different way.
    "Why can't we all just get along?" President Dale, Mars Attacks

  5. #15

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    Re: 6400 dpi 4x5 scanning problem, Epson V800 Vuescan

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt View Post
    Have you ever seen a photo show in a museum (or a gallery) were people don't get as close as they can to the print? I've seen my friend's large prints in a number of shows. In each case I looked at the print both from a few steps away and up close. Looking around the museum, I wasn't alone in that practice.

    Back to scanning. Make tests at a number of different resolutions. Decide on the largest size you could conceivably print. Then make some test prints at size, or, at least, make 8x10 portions of images such that they correspond to how big that area would be if the whole print was made. Put the prints up in good light, and judge for yourself. Even better: Do a double blind test and have a bunch of people look at the prints.... Ok. That's a fair amount of work. But it's much less than having to go back and scan, spot, and process your files more than once because you later realized that you could've gotten a better file scanning in a different way.
    For sure it is impressive to see perfect close up detail in a 2m print... it is not essential, Rembrandt paints show strokes seen from close and this is not a problem. But it is true that depicting very fine textures in a monster print from very close distance it can be catching, still at that close distance the picture is not seen as a whole, composition and message is absent in a close inspection, but inspecting close texturized detail can also be a resource for expression.

    A limitation I find is dealing with very large files, a 8x10 top qualtity scan that shapes well cubic grain (the big grains at least) may take some 7Gb, in a 16 bit file. JPG compression may be avoided. Then the file has to be sized to the output device requirement, one pixel for each dot, to be sure about the result. It is true that today's printers have very optimized algorithms for resizing, but we may want to sharpen the grains to an optimum after resizing to the destination device.

    The exhibition I saw taking extreme care for grain depiction was Salgado's Genesis. There were the pre 2007 shots, made with 645 TXP 220 format (now ony TX 120 is available) directly enlarged, showing darkroom skills of the french "tireur". Then there were also the post 2007 digital shots comming from a Canon DSLR, with DXO film pack artificial grain, LVT printed on Delta 100 sheets, and enlarged in darkroom. I spend several hours comparing "silver grain" to "digital grain on silver" there.

    Grain is a very delicate and challenging resource... IMHO, in general, it is overlooked in LF. Often we hear about it as a defect.

  6. #16
    SE Penna.
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    Re: 6400 dpi 4x5 scanning problem, Epson V800 Vuescan

    To me grain is analogous to brush strokes in a painting. The paint needs to get into the canvas or panel or cave wall somehow. In silver based photography, grain, grain clusters and dye clouds form the image. So to me grain may or may not be a defect. It depends on what the photographer's creative goal is.

    Regarding scanning, Peter and Pere are you talking about imaging individual grains, or grain clusters/clumps? My understanding is that individual grains are at least an order of magnitude smaller than the resolutions being discussed in this thread. My understanding is likely not 100% clear on this.

  7. #17
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    Re: 6400 dpi 4x5 scanning problem, Epson V800 Vuescan

    By "grain" I mean photographic grain, the kind that's visible in prints.

    How grain is presented in the final print is very important to many of us, and that's why we take a lot of care with format, film, developing system....and print size choices.
    "Why can't we all just get along?" President Dale, Mars Attacks

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    Re: 6400 dpi 4x5 scanning problem, Epson V800 Vuescan

    Me also I was thinking in clusters/clumps. To me grain structure of a film is significative footprint, this is if there is more grain in the darks greys (like TXP) or in the lighter greys (like HP5), but this aesthetic effect is way milder in LF than in smaller formats.

  9. #19

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    Re: 6400 dpi 4x5 scanning problem, Epson V800 Vuescan

    Quote Originally Posted by Pere Casals View Post
    Me also I was thinking in clusters/clumps. To me grain structure of a film is significative footprint, this is if there is more grain in the darks greys (like TXP) or in the lighter greys (like HP5), but this aesthetic effect is way milder in LF than in smaller formats.
    What is your workflow for scanning 4x5 Pere to get the most out of the scan and how do you do your selective sharpening as not to destroy the grain

  10. #20

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    Re: 6400 dpi 4x5 scanning problem, Epson V800 Vuescan

    Just a slightly different thought re maximum scan resolution: Of course, for a specific project which will get printed relatively soon, it makes sense to work out how large you are going to print - and then work out a sensible scanning resolution based on that. If you later want to work on bigger prints or crops, you could re-scan as necessary.

    But then, at least at C-41, Fuji for example gives an average live of 10 to 20 years for their negatives without any loss of quality, if I remember this rightly. So I imagine there is at least some argument for scanning at least colour negatives at the highest resolution you can achieve when you first archive them. (Which is really how I came to ask this question in the first place...) Of course that's somewhat different for b/w, where you'd hope your negatives have a much better live span.

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