Curly Prints.

[Ed K.]

Here are a couple of late additions for this page.

If you look at http://www.trueart.info/adhesives.htm , you can read a nice set of comments regarding adhesives for mounting. The Methylcellulose adhesive sounds most interesting for potential wet mounting. PVA doesn't sound too good, however I can offer no experience with any of the wet mounts.

The watercolor artist masking tape method, suggested above by George Hart, sounds interesting. It also seems to match what people say about slowing down the dry time for the edges. I have some fiber prints taped right now to try it out, next to some other prints that are clipped back-to-back, and one hanging stretched by clips. If the print is not too crinkly or wavy, dry mount or weight work. Some people say that screens have problems unless kept absolutely clean from any residues between use or accumulated during storage. In a way similar to John's rubber band frame, I might try some strips to squeeze the edges and hold things flat during drydown to save on masking tape if that works ( just trim the print a tad later). If methlycellulose is compatible with John Cook's mural technique some some extent, it could be a very interesting way to go. Damp soft fiber print, methylcellulose and alluminum or other perhaps more inert material? It would be great to get a good quality mount without a huge dry mount press and the related cost.

[John Cook]

Ed, the article’s statement that PVA glues are not water-soluble after fully dry goes contrary to my experience. Perhaps the disparity has something to do with the exact definition of “fully dry”.

As discussed elsewhere, I once worked for a studio which made large murals on Kodak mural paper and wet-mounted them onto double-tempered Masonite with Elmer’s white glue from the hardware store.

In essence, the technique was to apply slightly diluted glue (about 1 cup of water in 1 gallon of glue) to the Masonite with a paint roller and allow it to dry overnight. Then a very light sanding to knock down any large peaks left from the texture of the roller.

Within a week, a sopping-wet mural was laid on the Masonite and squeegeed dry with an old black hard rubber Kodak squeegee. The water on the print re-wet and re-activated the Elmer’s glue, causing the print to bond.

The mounted prints/boards were left to dry on the studio floor overnight. As the paper dried, it shrunk enough to form a nice, tight mount job.

Sometimes we would pre-glue both sides of the Masonite, so that an oversized wet print could be wrapped around the edges of the Masonite and glued onto the back. A nice, neat way to treat the raw edges when the murals were not to be framed.

But to the original question: I have not tried to re-wet and remove an old wet-mounted mural after several years. Perhaps this is the time line to which your cited article is referring.

[Ed K.]

First Test Done

Using Kentmere fiber paper, 11x14 size, so far the following results in my environment:

1. Back to back with 4 clips hanging - 2 inch depth to curl, paper slightly distorted from rectagular shape. Not back to back but with clips, similar but worse results. Edges not too wavy in either, but overall print flatness marginal.

2. Hanging until nearly dry, then flattening under pressure - fair results, pretty flat, might at least dry mount without wrinkles or dings. Confirms Gene Crumpler's suggestion.

3. George Hart's watercolor taping method - masking tape around damp print, allow to dry face up, taped down - edges of print razor straight. Overall flatness very good especially in middle. Small amount of masking tape residue around edges that could be trimmed. Unfortunately, a small amount of wave near edges because tape did not allow edges to shrink as much as the nearby interior area of print. Overall, looks very mountable. Perhaps with a little more humidity, or some kind of pressure slightly less than the adhesive of masking tape, this might produce a perfect print suitable for hanging under a mat. This is a very promising method overall, and very worth trying again. Seems like whatever process has to keep edges drying near the same rate as the rest while also allowing the print to shrink while drying.

4. John Cook's method - about to try a couple of variants. So far, John is right about one thing, Lineco apparently makes a "reversable" version of their PVA which is labled "archival". There are also a number of articles regarding mixing methylcellulose glues with starches to control adhesion. Apparently not all PVA glues or methylcellulose glues are created equal. Glues, starches and "archival" adhesives seem to be sold by book binding concerns for the most part.

I just received an email from a Sintra supplier that says PVA glues work "OK" with Sintra, although bettter if the Sintra is lightly sanded and cleaned first. Double tempered Masonite is not so easy to get these days, at least for me, and it does absorb mosture over time plus weigh alot. 10mm Sintra would weigh less, not change with moisture, and ( we'll see ) probably not warp. Gator seems like it has a bit too much tooth underneath, which might affect the print surface.

Some people do it as John descrbes by precoating the board then using a very wet print. Others use a damp print and then apply the adhesive just before fitting the print to the board. I'm hoping for the second method - damp print on board with adhesive applied at that time to the board then roller/squeegee the print with optional wrapped sides.

These are not endorsements, however worth looking at are:

http://www.paperbookintensive.org/2whit.html - great article regarding mounting adhesives.

http://www.bookmakerscatalog.com/catalog/adhesives/adhesives.htm - sells most of the adhesives. Some of the starches seem potentially useful.

http://www.misterart.com/store/view/001/group_id/1718/Lineco-Methyl-Cellulose-Adhesive.htm - another "archival" adhesive, one that may or may not create a strong enough bond or bond to Sintra, however likely to work with masonite.

http://www.tri-dee.com - sells Sintra and will cut the sheets up into smaller sizes for a reasonable fee. If a decent quantity is purchased, the Sintra would cost less, be thicker, store beter and ( hopefully ) warp less than Masonite or not at all. Obviously, there must be others who offer simlilar pricing and services. Got a quick response to my email.

John - for murals, your method sounds great, it is a classic, no argument. I'm looking for ways to get the costs down while hoping to improve the "archival" chances of things. It seems that a lot of places want something removable in case the backing goes bad later on. Who knows about Sintra in this regard, there has not been enough time. Again, no argument with your method, just looking to see if there is a "modern" alternative. It would also be great to avoid using another piece of paper on the back, as the ideal paper would be the same as the front, which means wasting an expensive piece of nice fiber paper, right? I do know that 1/8th Sintra does warp badly over time even with a Chromogenic RC print on the front. 10mm is just over 3/8ths inch, which seems like enough for prints up to 16x20.

The prospect of actually mounting while wet or damp, skipping the warping and flattening part as well as dry mount press with heat sounds really good. If one of the next round of tests works out well, I'll let you know.

[John Cook]

Ed, I'm hanging on every word. On behalf of the rest of the troops, thanks so much for your efforts.

I agree that with the demise of Kodak Mural R paper, my methods described above are obsolete. I had hoped someone could update the technique with modern archival materials, saving the dry mount headaches.

A major problem with fiber paper (which I never noticed until I tried wet mounting) is the extent to which wet paper stretches. My three to four foot murals were an inch longer when wet. One had to take care when exposing on dry paper not to get anything important too near the edge or it might get cropped in mounting.

I now understand that this wet/dry size difference, together with uneven drying, is what causes unflat fiber prints.

We have used gatorfoam for dry-mounting color C prints for years. It won't squash in the big Seal vacuum press. The surface on our board is extremely smooth. We get it by the full 4x8 carton, truck freighted on an oak pallet. Comes in white with a white core, black with a black core and kraft paper brown. Thickness ranges from less than 1/4 to well over an inch.

If you got hold of some rough-surfaced board, could it have been from a competitor?

Thanks again for your work. I shall be checking back often for the next installment.

John

[Patrik Roseen]

I was thinking of starting a new thread when I came across this one...

I have this friend ;-) who accidently rushed the drying of fiberbased paper in such away that the edges got all curled up (from probably including more water than the middle part of the paper and therefor drying/shrinking slower).
Is it possible to wet the paper again and let it dry according to the methods above or could this make the curl even worse?
If it's possible to re-dry the paper...should it soak for a long time or a short time before drying it again?