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Thread: Sinar P2 8x10 600-1200mm realistic for outdoor photography?

  1. #11
    tgtaylor's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar P2 8x10 600-1200mm realistic for outdoor photography?

    According to Nikon only the 600, 800, and 1200T will cover 8x10 if stopped down for f22 (310mm image circle) otherwise they are basically a 4x5 and 5x7 lens with 200mm of coverage. A 310mm IC doesn't allow for much movements on 8x10. I would for lens that offer a much larger IC.

    Thomas

  2. #12

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    Re: Sinar P2 8x10 600-1200mm realistic for outdoor photography?

    I shot long lenses with 8x10 for a number of years, and used the Nikon T lens set you are considering as well as the Schneider APO Tele Xenar 600/800 convertible and Fuji 600C.

    Nikon lenses in general have conservative coverage specs, and my recollection is that the Nikon T 800 and 1200mm configurations have some usable image circle (particularly the 1200mm) to spare on 8x10. Coverage with the 600mm configuration is tighter but it still covers 8x10 "straight through" (little or no movements).

    As already noted, stability is a huge challenge when shooting 8x10 long lenses. The camera body and both standards need individual support, with dedicated tripods or at a minimum a heavy tripod plus long lens support arms. I used both an Ebony mahogany camera and an Arca Swiss F Classic monorail, and of the two the Arca was easier to stabilize. Dampening the kick of the large Copal 3 shutter can also be useful, draping a bag of sand or dried peas over the lens barrel can help this a bit. You can also increase your success rate somewhat by using faster film, I sometimes used Portra 400, or HP5+ pushed one stop (which still provides a reasonable amount of dynamic range).

    Even with all these precautions, even the slightest breeze can destabilize your setup and result in a soft image, as it is difficult to shelter so much extension behind a single umbrella or other portable windbreak. All too often I found myself getting sharper images with my DSLR rather than the 8x10, even though the tonality of the 8x10 image was far superior.

    8x10 also has a very limited depth of field, especially with long lenses, which can significantly limit your choice of subjects. So with all these challenges, do you think you really need something as large as 8x10, or can you succeed with a smaller format? I got good results shooting 4x5 with Fuji 450C and 600C lenses, the Nikon 360/500/720 troika is also a worthy solution, although the 720mm configuration is reportedly a bit soft. 5x7 can also be a good compromise if you don't mind group ordering color neg film from Keith Canham or cutting down 8x10 chrome (5x7 B&W is more readily available).

  3. #13
    Corran's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar P2 8x10 600-1200mm realistic for outdoor photography?

    As a side note in the discussion of the Nikkor-T 720mm - I have found that it covers 8x10. I can not say if the periphery of the image is as good as say the Nikkor-T 800mm, but it does work. The 720mm wide-open is at f/16. If you stop it down to f/32-45 it definitely seems to get mushy real quick - but at f/22, just one stop closed, it seems to me to be very sharp. I have an extension bed on my Chamonix 4x5 and I have used a monopod on the front of that to help stabilize the whole setup...but I have never shot long exposures with it or in extreme wind. Pushing film is a good idea due to the natural contrast loss due to haze and atmospheric conditions, especially here in the high humidity south.
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  4. #14
    tgtaylor's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar P2 8x10 600-1200mm realistic for outdoor photography?

    Quote Originally Posted by tgtaylor View Post
    According to Nikon only the 600, 800, and 1200T will cover 8x10 if stopped down for f22 (310mm image circle) otherwise they are basically a 4x5 and 5x7 lens with 200mm of coverage. A 310mm IC doesn't allow for much movements on 8x10. I would for lens that offer a much larger IC.

    Thomas
    The 610mm and 760mm Apo Nikkors' easily cover 8x10 and their huge IC will allow all the movements the P2 can deliver. Both can be mounted in an Ilex 5 shutter, and come in modern (1980's) versions that are coated and extremely sharp. There are several 610's available on ebay right now and the 760's appear from time to time. There is a 1200 or so Apo Nikkor but it is much rarer and AFAIK no shutter available to mount it in.

    Thomas

  5. #15
    village idiot BennehBoy's Avatar
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    Re: Sinar P2 8x10 600-1200mm realistic for outdoor photography?

    I took my 8x10 P2 to France this summer in an attempt to burn through my remaining color slide film.

    In short, you need to transport the camera with lenses using a vehicle, I have a large slik professional tripod and the heavy Sinar pan tilt head. Lenses used were a 165/8 Super Angulon and a 300/5.6 Symmar.

    I'm a fairly fit & strong bloke and I struggled to get the camera, on tripod, with lens mounted plus a large messenger bag containing 10 DDS & accoutrements more than 200m from the vehicle on foot - and this was on fairly level ground between some dunes.

    The movements did come in a treat for some architectural type shots that I made, but predominantly I shot portraits so sorely wished I had a field camera!

    I've no doubt that had I had a lighter setup I would've shot more film - I managed 50 sheets out of the 100 that I took with me.

    Even at these modest focal lengths and with a rock solid tripod/head combination, wind on a relatively short belows extension was a problem. I'd hate to think what a 600 or 1200 would be like under the same moderately light wind conditions.

    Some of my exposures were in the order of seconds to minutes... (although most were sub 0.5s)

  6. #16

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    Re: Sinar P2 8x10 600-1200mm realistic for outdoor photography?

    I have a Sinar P1 8x10 I sometimes used in the field until I got a Sinar F2 8x10. I echo many of the previous statements about size and weight of the P series cameras in the field. Have you considered K.B. Canham cameras? http://www.canhamcameras.com/ Keith is a great guy to work with and his cameras are top notch. They also use Sinar boards so any lenses you already have mounted on Sinar lens boards would work on his 8x10 camera. Bear in find even if you do use a Nikkor 1200mm lens I think you will still need around 33 to 34 inches of bellows draw to use that lens. Which introduces a whole series of additional variables. Do not underestimate the need for a rock solid tripod/head combination for such a setup.

    -Joshua

  7. #17

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    Re: Sinar P2 8x10 600-1200mm realistic for outdoor photography?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Sampson View Post
    See the work of the late Reinhart Wolf. He used an 8x10 Sinar and long lenses to photograph the tops of skyscrapers in New York City, back in the '70s. Beautiful work- the logistics must have been daunting at times though.
    A Wolf's book, using pretty long focals is Castels In Spain (Taschen)

  8. #18

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    Re: Sinar P2 8x10 600-1200mm realistic for outdoor photography?

    Quote Originally Posted by andrew11 View Post

    [600-1200mm lenses]

    My advice: Don't focus your LF introduction as an equipment acquisition question, but as a learning process. This would be a big mistake. I'm still a rookie LF photographer, but it is first I understood.

    Then you realize that Ansel Adams and Yousuf Karsh did not make those great photographs from gear, but from knowledge and talent. You had given them a wood camera looking firewood and a 75 years old glass, without even a shutter, and still they had been making the same elevated art.


    "For instance, Ansel Adams used a Cooke triple convertible for some of his most famous images according to an article by Gordon Hutchings in View Camera magazine, July/August 2004. Ansel used the 19" (480 mm) component for "Aspens, Northern New Mexico," 1958; both components to get 12" (300 mm) for "Clearing Winter Storm, Yosemite National Park," 1940; and the 23" (580 mm) component for "Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico," 1941. Enough said? "


    http://www.kenrockwell.com/schneider/150.htm


    If right now you are shooting landscape with Nikon/Canon FX 200mm focals you know what you want, if not you should investigate it.

    IMHO you should start with 45, and first understanding 45 and 810 limitations. 810 is an slightly superior quality than 45, but not always it is clearly superior. A 810 longuer lens covering a larger circle may deliver lower performance than a 45 one in Lp/mm terms, so 810 format size advantage is partially eroded by practical system implementation.

    Then a 8x10 drum scan can cost $ several hundreds, if you are to scan in a cheap but good Flatbed like Epson V850 then you should know what you will obtain with 810 and 45

    Ultimate performance depends on LF photogfrapher skills, film sharpness, particular lens performance and format.


    You have to answer next questions:

    What film will I use ? Velvia/Provia ? Ektar? BW tabular? HP5? TMY?

    Will I develop E-6, C-41, BW ?

    Will I scan or darkroom print ?

    Developing BW for LF if different than with rolls ... With LF you have the oportunity to cook every sheet independently, this is a major LF tool. What do I need to learn and what equipment I want ? Rotary ? Trays ?

    What do I need to master about Scheimflug principle ? How it can be mastered as an aesthetical resource.


    IMHO you can practice all that first in 45, you will shot way more, you will learn much faster, and you will figure better what 810 equipment will fulfill your desires, and when a 810 makes a differnce or not.

    So I encourage you to engage that journey. Learn, think about the light, and the visualization, prepare a project. Then selecting gear will be easy.

  9. #19

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    Re: Sinar P2 8x10 600-1200mm realistic for outdoor photography?

    I've shot Sinar P 8x10 at Burning Man using Eidoscope #2 and a 15" Portland lenses on expired instant film. It's a bit of a drag to get around with and you get a lot of attention but it's doable. My alternate "field" camera is a Calumet C1, not much gain in weight. My Deardorff V8 can't handle the weight of the SF lenses I'm using, so that one is relegated to landscapes within bellow limit.

    I second the need to sturdy tripod and if you are going for 800+ mm lenses, you will need to use a second tripod to support the front,

    Good luck

    Rudi A.

  10. #20

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    Re: Sinar P2 8x10 600-1200mm realistic for outdoor photography?

    Was this post a troll ? Nothing further has been heard from the OP.

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