Am I boring? (deciding 8x10 or larger)

[Doug Dolde]

A Fujinon Compact 600mm would be just a tad longer than normal for 8x20. Has a 620mm image circle and Badger sells em for $1425. Not bad considering the coverage.

[Ole Tjugen]

As many have pointed out, anything larger than 8x10" will have expensive film holders. And anything larger than 11x14" will have "non-standard" film holders, since there simply is no standard.

I recently paid about $500 for a Russian 30x40cm plate camera - I don't expect it to be used as much as my 5x7" (or my 8x10" when I finish restoring it), but I bought it for those "special occasions" when size counts. I wouldn't start out in LF with a ULF camera...

Lenses can be expensive too - the bigger they are, the more expensive they are. I may decide to go for a 360mm Symmar, which should be one of the cheapest shuttered lenses to cover 30x40cm.

[jonathan smith]

What I would really like to have is 12x20. In inches, 30x50 in centimeters. I do like that wider, more panoramic format (but not true panoramic), but at this very moment I'm aware that it will be tooooo costly.

I would say, if this is the format you want, do it. Don't worry about getting 8x10 and moving up. If you stick to 8x10, you will feel compromised.

I got into 8x10 because that's the format I wanted, and I have gotten used to the challenges and am happy because I don't feel like I compromised like if I had gotten into 4x5 first. If it's 12x20 you want, do it, build your own camera and holders, sell your car and buy a lens. You only live once.

[Brian Ellis]

I saw the $200 Agfa Ansco you're referring to on ebay. The price is o.k. but not great given the need for a new bellows. He says the bellows has lots of tape so forget about using it as is for any length of time. There's a reason why it has lots of tape and that reason will cause holes to keep developing. Some people solve bellows hole problems by draping the dark cloth over the bellows, that isn't something I care to do since I use the darkcloth to cover the top of the film holder.

But apart from the bellows problem, I wouldn't buy that particular Agfa Ansco for any price. The seller didn't include any pictures of it when I saw the listing and that should tell you something. However, an 8x10 Agfa Ansco in good condition is an excellent camera and would be a good choice for you. I owned a 5x7 for a while. The only problem I found is that it's not only heavy, it's very bulky because the camera bed extension is permanently attached. Otherwise it's an excellent camera, well built, long bellows, more than adequate movements,etc. and can often be bought for $500 or less on ebay.

[Nick Morris]

Hello Janko. I started with a 8x10 Kodak 2D. I bought it with two holders and Series IV Wollensak Velostigmat f6.8 9 1/2" lens. I paid $300 for it. It was not a bad camera, did what I wanted, and I learned alot with it. However, it has limited movements, which was not a problem for me; and not so good bellows, which was a problem.

I had, and took the chance to buy an 8x10 Ansco (the grey one), with 3 holders, 8x10, 5x7, & 8x10 backs; 8 1/4" Dagor lens, case, and tripod, and paid $300 for it. The base of the camera had been broken, and repaired, but still the better deal by far. Bellows are in excellent condition (immediately noticed improved contrast in my negatives) and levels had been added to the front and rear standards. Its not pretty, but it does the job. There have been several Anscos like mine on eb*y recently that sold in the range of $200-$300. I have really loved the Deardorffs I've seen and handled, but I just can't justify the extra money for one. I just bought a 5x7 grey Ansco with 5x7 back, 4x5 reduction back, some 4x5 holders, and case included for $200. A Deardorff, either 8x10 or 5x7 would likely be in the $700 to $1,500 range.

I have both the Wollensak Series 1A Velostigmat (uncoated, older) and the 1A Raptar (newer, coated) triple convertibles, and would recommend both. The Velostigmat is sharp, and produces a more old fashioned (lower contrast) look that I like. The newer Raptar is very shap and contrasty, almost too much for my taste. I have only contact printed, so can not say how the lenses perform when negs are enlarged. Prices can vary significantly for these lenses. The last Ratar 1A I saw sell on eb*y went for over $600. I paid $160 for mine. I have seen 1A Velostigmats sell for over $300, but I paid $34 for mine. Bought both of mine on eb*y.

Based on my limited experience, I would recommend the Ansco over the Eastman Kodak, or B&J, if a choice is available to you. As others have said, you want one with good bellows. The Wollensak Series 1A is, in my opinion, a very good lens.

[Nick Morris]

Janko...two additional comments on my previous post. The two 8x10 outfits I bought, I bought locally. I sold the Eastman through internet auction. The 5x7 I mentioned, I bought on the internet - ebay.

The Wollensak Series 1A lens I refered to are true triple convertibles, but I have very rarely used the single elements, only the combined, prime configuration, and can't really comment on the performance of the single elements.

I found moving up to 8x10 and contact printing to be very rewarding. I would highly recommend making the move to 8x10 and experiencing the contact print. There is a very noticable difference between an 8x10 contact print and a 4x5 neg enlarged to 8x10. It will feed your desire for ULF, but is still satisfying. I have almost made the move to 11x14, but I do not think I ever will. Costs are an issue for me. Unless one were to stumble upon an outfit - camera with good bellows, holders , and lens - at a very good price, the cost would be significantly higher than even 8x10, which can be high enough in itself.

[Nick Morris]

Janko, still more comments on my previous post.

I ran across the B&J 8x10 camera with the Series 1 Velostigmat lens. My first 8x10, the Eastman Kodak, came with a Wollensak lens in an Optimo shutter. That shutter can be difficult to service, an early and primitive design. I believe the Series 1 is different, a different design, then the 1A, and may not be as good a performer as the Series 1A. Still it should be sharp enough for B&W contact printing. Also the lack of an extention rail will limit the use of long lenses and close-up use. Extension rails do come up for sale on ebay from time to time. I had to buy an extension rail for the Kodak at a later date on ebay. The Ansco has a built in extension rail, which is a nice feature.

[Gregory Gomez]

Janko,

You're not boring, but you are a bit of a romantic perhaps.

To answer your first question about the 8 x 10 being large enough, the answer is "Yes!" You can make wonderful contact prints with this camera size, and in time you can also make very good 16 x 20 enlargements.

Should you wait for the lottery jackpot to buy a 12 x 20? No. You'll be waiting the rest of your life.

If you can afford a Bronica or Hasselblad camera, then you can afford an 8 x 10, or even a 12 x 20, if you are willing to save your money and to stay focused on your ultimate goal. Switching cameras every other year can get expensive.

As a previous poster stated, if you like the 12 x 20, then go for it. There's no need to "settle" for an 8 x 10, although that will be the camera I will be using.

It seems that your main objection to larger format cameras is equipment cost. If you can find a used 12 x 20 in great shape, that would be one avenue, but you will have to be very persistent and patient. Several models will present themselves over time, but choose the one that has the features you really need, and preferably one that's in good shape. A battered camera is no deal in the long run.

Also keep in mind that you will need a very good tripod. Ries and Gitzo make fine units, but they can be costly. To keep the price down, you might consider a surveyor's tripod:

http://www.professionalequipment.com/xq/ASP/id.15/subID.317/qx/default.htm?CMP=KNC-Overture

If you go with a new 12 x 20, here's three recommendations:

1. K.B Canham 12 x 20. 16.8 pounds (7.6 kg). $6,000.

2. Wisner P 12 x 20. 17.0 pounds (7.72 kg). Price ?

3. Lotus View 12 x 20. 25.3 pounds (11.5 kg) 6,550 Euros.

Wisner sells 12 x 20 film holders at $475 each. Maybe you will be able to find some used?

Keep in mind that your camera equipment may not be the most expensive item. With film, paper, processing, and mounting costs, you may be looking at spending about $25 per image, assuming of course you will be shooting a more reasonably priced film like Efke PL 100 at about $7 per shot. So if you make 200 images per year, expect to pay about $5,000 annually.

Unless you have all the shop tools and are a very good wood craftsman, forget about trying to make a decent working field camera.

As for an 8 x 10 Deardorff, you can expect to pay anywhere from $1,200 to $1,800, or more, for a really good mint copy. If you pay less than that, you may need to replace the bellows and/or have the camera refinished. I owned an 8 x 10 Deardorff once. It was a great camera, but I did not like the small wing nuts that secured the front standard. They were hard to use in cold weather, and they kept falling off the camera. Other than that, the Deardorff is a real beauty.

I don't know anything about the Kodak 2-D. Try contacting the seller to see what he really wants for the item. My take is that the camera for sale has some limitations: it has no front swings or tilts from what I can tell, and the lens looks rather beat up to me. But then what do I know? If you were to use it as a portrait camera, it would work fine, but you are seeking a camera for landscape work, right? So maybe you will need something with more camera movements, especially front tilts, which are useful in controlling depth of field in subject matter with near-to-far relationships.

I have never tried to shoot close-ups or small aspects of nature with a camera as big as 12 x 20. I think an 8 x 10 would be as big as I would ever want to go with that type of subject matter. The bulk of the camera, the limited depth of field of the lens, and the small apertures required (resulting in long exposure times) might be somewhat of a deterrent for me. But, hey, if you're persistent, who knows? But it wouldn't be something I would try.

Incidentally, waiting fives years is not so bad if you can continue shooting with what you already have. Maybe it would be better to wait for what you really want than to buy an 8 x 10 now only to discard it later for a more costly apparatus.

"Wonderful Mediterranean (east Adriatic coast) cheese, wine and olives... I have lost myself a little bit."

The lost part is accurate. You need to find yourself before committing your money. You really need to know what you want to accomplish before buying yet another camera.

"Now I'm ready to write a book about what I would like to have but have no money for it yet, but I'm curious did anyone had enough patience to fight with my english to this point..."

Your English is more than fine.

"P.S. How about Agfa Ansco 8x10 (...although the camera can be utilized with present bellows, a replacement would be better...) for $ 200, or Burke & James 8x10 with Triple Convertible Velostigmat Series 1 lens (have no idea what kind of lens that is) for $350..?"

I had an 8 x 10 Agfa Ansco in my hands about 20 years ago, and I didn't think much of it at the time. Morley Baer used that camera nearly all of his career, and I didn't think much of his camera either despite the numerous modifications he had to make to it in order to get the flexibility he needed. On the other hand, Morley's camera was stable in light wind.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Greg

[Janko Belaj]

tnx for all your responses... Greg was really close to my thoughts and I will follow (not only his) recommendation: patience...



Well, I'm back home from the first part of my vacation, haven't done so many 4x5 shots as I planed, specially not the coast from the sea - water was either to "flat", either the waves where too strong. The only day with sea condition which I wanted to shot was a rainy day. But there are several cool clouds taken with my Tachihara and plenty of shots with Rolleicord. Anyway, I have decided first to try to find some 18x24 cm camera in my neighborhood (european 8x10 version, most of them might take 8x10 holders and, after all, I will order from Fotokemika to cut film to the size of holders/camera which I will get one day) - there were many photographers using them and I know only one person having one of them right now... couldn't be that all others have burned theirs "antiques"...



One question for the lens - I have 210mm G-Claron, it has a 260mm coverage (according to classic LF lens list compiled by Michael Gudzinowicz) and I'm afraid it won't cover 18x24/8x10... anyone with different experience?



I'm aware of huge prices for ULF equipment and that is reason why I will keep that as a long-term plan, in meantime I will get "medium sized LF" ;-)) The named budget of $500 was only the budget I could manage this days, I have already signed contract for a project which will give me chance to triple that budget in several months. Question is will my wife continue to insist on big redecoration of our flat or just on small one...

[Gregory Gomez]

I have the 210mm G-Claron. When used wide open and focused at infinity, it covers my 8 x 10 with movements. At F22, the image circle is even larger, and it grows still bigger as I focus on subjects closer to the camera. I would judge its image circle to be about 410mm. The 210 G-Claron will give you about the same angle of view as a 28mm lens on a 35mm camera.