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Thread: please advise.. 4x5 or 8x10 for big prints on handmade paper?

  1. #1
    digging for fire
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    please advise.. 4x5 or 8x10 for big prints on handmade paper?

    hello.
    i have spent an hour today reading on different forums.
    and there are many opinions. most people were discussing this question in regard of a hybrid workflow, digital negatives, transparencies, or simply inkjet prints after drumscans..

    i have been processing handmade silvergelatin paper, and now that my coating skills have improved quite a bit, medium format (6x7) doesnt fulfill my expectations anymore.
    not only looking for more sharpness, but especially more resolution and better tonality.

    letting all other aspects aside (enlarger, weight, lenses, price, etc.) who of you has seen the real life differences in 4x5 and 8x10 negatives enlarged to approx. 40x50 inch?

    thankful for your input,
    best regards,
    chris

  2. #2
    Foamer
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    Re: please advise.. 4x5 or 8x10 for big prints on handmade paper?

    I think 4x5 might be to small, but 8x10 might be a beast to learn on. I'm going to suggest 5x7. I have both 4x5 and 5x7, and the 5x7 isn't that much bigger and yet it's often big enough.


    Kent in SD
    In contento ed allegria
    Notte e di vogliam passar!

  3. #3
    digging for fire
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    Re: please advise.. 4x5 or 8x10 for big prints on handmade paper?

    Quote Originally Posted by Two23 View Post
    I think 4x5 might be to small, but 8x10 might be a beast to learn on. I'm going to suggest 5x7. I have both 4x5 and 5x7, and the 5x7 isn't that much bigger and yet it's often big enough.


    Kent in SD
    hello there.
    i forgot to mention that i do own and use a 5x7.
    its a pentacon mentor 2, a very heavy beast. more than 11 kg without a lens... far from portable.
    and as i travel a lot, i am definitely looking for portability, but right now i am used to travelling with a rz67 kit (2 lenses, 2 backs.. etc)
    so, i am pretty fit

  4. #4

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    Re: please advise.. 4x5 or 8x10 for big prints on handmade paper?

    Hi Chris,

    I own and have shot with both 4x5 and 8x10 for nearly 40 years and I can tell you that I personally have seen the difference between the two in 8x10 size prints! Many years ago, I did some tests whereby I shot a few different outdoor scenes (my usual subjects) on my favorite film at the time (Tri-X) in both sizes. The 4x5 was enlarged 2x to 8x10 and the 8x10 was contact printed. The differences were subtle, but easily seen and I preferred the contact print. For fact, for over a decade during the 80's and into the early 90's the 8x10 and contact printing was the only way I worked. Therefore, I have to believe that in 40x50 prints the more square inches of film you have available the better.

    There are still quite a few options available in 8x10, but for portability you may want to check out the new Intrepid 8x10 when it becomes generally available.

    Good luck!

  5. #5
    jp's Avatar
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    Re: please advise.. 4x5 or 8x10 for big prints on handmade paper?

    If you compare a 40x50 inch print with an 8x10 contact print, you will be disappointed. The big prints can look great, but it's not a fair comparison. I have no idea what your styles or subjects are but that can make a difference too. For some things, an 8x10 is impractical and 4x5 works great. For other things 8x10 is the right tool. You'll have to try them.

  6. #6
    Andrej Gregov
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    Re: please advise.. 4x5 or 8x10 for big prints on handmade paper?

    I've seen silver murals from Josef Koudelka blown up from 35mm negs at the Getty. Technically, I didn’t care for them. Thought they looked terrible. But I enjoyed the subject matter in the images. And from what I could tell of those around me, they loved his enlargements—resolution and tonality didn’t matter at all. At the other spectrum, I've seen Hiroshi Sugimoto silver murals made from 8x10 negs. They were technically much more beautufil than enlarged 35mm negs. And I enjoyed the subject matter of the images very much (for example his minimal seascapes). Finally, I’ve seen 8x10 contact prints made from 8x10 negs, some printed on silver chloride papers, from Edward Weston, Richard Avedon and Michael Smith among others. The images IMO were technically superior in resolution and tonal depth from any murals I’ve ever seen. And from each I enjoyed their subject matter.

    If you noticed, the one consistent in my experience is the enjoying the final work. While technical acumen in final prints can add or take away from an image, at the end of the day it's about the meaningfulness of the work to viewers.

    Every photographer's choices for equipment and final medium for display are personal choices. I agree with others in the thread, you have to experiment with various output mediums/processes and see what fits your aesthetic and eye. I think the idea of picking up an 8x10 Intrepid is a brilliant way to cheaply see 8x10 results for yourself. They also have a great 4x5 solution. But don’t discount medium format so quickly. Your eye may see and respond better to handheld shooting. Brett Weston made stunning prints from medium format negs. I'd focus on producing meaningful work and experiment with different formats that fit how you like to work along the way. Otherwise you spend all your time researching technical matters instead of producing work.

    All that said, remember it takes many years to become a great printer. The negative is just one step in the process. That's why focusing on real projects and improving equipment and technique along the way is the safest way to approach the technical aspects of this way of art making. Don’t get sucked into the equipment/process vortex. You know you're in it if you don’t know what to shoot with your exisiting equipment. That's when the best of us start researching new cameras and output methods (guilty as charged). Best of luck.

  7. #7
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: please advise.. 4x5 or 8x10 for big prints on handmade paper?

    It's easy to get over year head (and budget) with an 8x10 darkroom. It takes a distinct commitment of space and long-term patience. And if you plan to hand coat, is your paper speed going to be fast enough to allow you to optically enlarge it without resorting to an intensely hot "nuke" enlarger? 8x10 gear is also more physically demanding in the field.

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    Re: please advise.. 4x5 or 8x10 for big prints on handmade paper?

    I'll second the vote for 5x7. Although it sounds like your current one is somewhat of a beast - I can also assume that you might already own a number of holders and perhaps lenses for this format...and you will find that upgrading to something a bit lighter (like a Canham) can provide you with a kit which is really not that much more cumbersome (in all ways) than going with 4x5.

    I use many different formats...and my most common print size from 5x7 is 20x30. I'll occasionally push a 4x5 image this large...but this really depends on this size being truly appropriate for qualities of a given subject which don't necessarily depend on truly fine renderings of detail. In other words...I do notice a difference between 4x5 and 5x7 when going to this size of print.

    Of course I'm assuming that your subject matter and paper coating skills will truly allow what would otherwise (with great film, paper, subject brightness ranges, textures, contrasts, etc.) be, IMHO, a visible difference between the two (4x5 and 5x7) formats.

    As for 8x10...this can either be a wonderful format or a logistical nightmare, depending on how, what, and where you like to photograph. Needing/wanting to enlarge from this format (instead of doing contacts) exacerbates these logistics. You'd mentioned that you need something lightweight as you like to travel. Being fit might be the least of your concerns (although this definitely helps!).

    It might be really helpful to provide us with more details about the how, what, and where you like to photograph. Do you tend to shoot in windy locations? Do you tend to go for details that render with tactile-sharpness - and/or are you willing to sacrifice depth of focus (regardless of "corrective" movements) to avoid what could end up as visible diffraction given such large print sizes? Do you find yourself taking lots of strong down-angle to straight-down angle shots, and/or are your film holders subject to sudden changes in temperature/moisture as they are moved from vehicle to backpack to camera? All of the issues associated with these questions become more difficult to deal with as format size increases...sometimes to the point that your results could end up being visibly better by sticking with the smaller format.

    At any rate...do let us know a bit more!

  9. #9

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    Re: please advise.. 4x5 or 8x10 for big prints on handmade paper?

    hey....don't get me wrong - big, big prints from 8x10 negatives can be absolutely stunning!

  10. #10
    bob carnie's Avatar
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    Re: please advise.. 4x5 or 8x10 for big prints on handmade paper?

    Quote Originally Posted by chris77 View Post
    hello.
    i have spent an hour today reading on different forums.
    and there are many opinions. most people were discussing this question in regard of a hybrid workflow, digital negatives, transparencies, or simply inkjet prints after drumscans..

    i have been processing handmade silvergelatin paper, and now that my coating skills have improved quite a bit, medium format (6x7) doesnt fulfill my expectations anymore.
    not only looking for more sharpness, but especially more resolution and better tonality.

    letting all other aspects aside (enlarger, weight, lenses, price, etc.) who of you has seen the real life differences in 4x5 and 8x10 negatives enlarged to approx. 40x50 inch?

    thankful for your input,
    best regards,
    chris
    I have made silver enlarger prints to 40 x50 from 8 x10 negatives and 4 x5 negatives. taking out all variables and considering each negative is created with the same skill set, and both were printed onto glossy silver gelatin paper, I would pick the 8 x10 negative - print every day of the week.

    I am fortunate enough to own a 11 x14 Devere enlarger, but my camera skills fall very short of most of the workers on this site.. However I am considering renting/buying a 11 x14 camera and learning how to create an exposure on film that is technically and artistically satisfying to me and then make 30 x40 silver gelatin prints on Ilford Warmtone paper. I have a series in mind that I would like to do.
    I think if everything goes well the combination would be awesome , almost like making an 8x10 print from a 4x5 negative.

    Regarding your handmade silvergelatin paper, if you have rough texture I doubt you would see any difference between the two formats.

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