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Thread: Stand development and pushing / pulling? I don't quite get it.

  1. #1

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    Stand development and pushing / pulling? I don't quite get it.

    I've read that you can push/pull in stand development and the times still don't really matter, meaning you can develop say a roll or sheet of a 100 ISO film along with a 400 ISO film in the same canister.

    But that seems very counter-intuitive because that means you could get similar results with a wide variety of exposures?

    I tried stand development with HC-110 and HP5+ yesterday (4x5) and I did get some pretty nice results. The negatives looked kinda like a comic book given the highlights were pretty deep but the rest of the negative looked a bit thin. They scanned pretty well though and still showed some nice HP5-like contrast. Haven't tried a darkroom print yet (I can only do contact prints at the moment).

    The approach I really like since I can be lazy and/or go do other things while it's developing But the lack of having to care about ISO or exposure has me a little confused there (and somewhat concerned).

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    Re: Stand development and pushing / pulling? I don't quite get it.

    I do not use stand development for several reasons, but in the late 1930's and 40's I used it every day in the lab where I worked. We used it along with total development. Each afternoon just before closing we hung all roll films, regardless of make or rating, on a big rack. the rack was lowered into a huge vat of developer and left overnight. The following morning processing was completed and prints made. essentially all negatives were printable with the automatic printer. Advanced photographers who used our services preferred individual development because, they said, we were able to get a more even distribution of tones.

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    Re: Stand development and pushing / pulling? I don't quite get it.

    Stand development is essentially a 'completion' process. All that can become is complete because the developer becomes exhausted.
    In my modest experience it does not require a time greater than 40 minutes using Rodinal 1:100. YMMV.

    It is not magic. It will not miraculously moderate highlight density with elevated shadow contrast. It DOES permit you to mix films
    in one batch - for better or worse.

    Perhaps Mr. Noel can tell us what chemistry he used.

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    Re: Stand development and pushing / pulling? I don't quite get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by m00dawg View Post
    I've read that you can push/pull in stand development and the times still don't really matter, meaning you can develop say a roll or sheet of a 100 ISO film along with a 400 ISO film in the same canister.
    It's impossible to say because you have not defined what "stand development" is -- let alone "push/pull". If you think "time doesn't matter", I'd suggest you read Stephen Hawking. He explains that "time" and "matter" are really the same thing.

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    Re: Stand development and pushing / pulling? I don't quite get it.

    30's and 40's, no kidding Jim!? That's some amazing history there, thanks for your insight!

    xkaes, in terms of what I meant by times don't matter was that I read if you put in say two rolls of HP5+, one shot at 400 and one at 800 that the times don't need to change. You will still stand develop for 45minutes or whatever your preferred recipe was. That's what I read on the Internet so chances of that being wrong are certainly non-zero

    But if that was the case, that's why it had me confused. Conventional logic would indicate to me that the negative shot at 800 speed would be under-exposed.

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    Re: Stand development and pushing / pulling? I don't quite get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by m00dawg View Post
    30's and 40's, no kidding Jim!? That's some amazing history there, thanks for your insight!

    xkaes, in terms of what I meant by times don't matter was that I read if you put in say two rolls of HP5+, one shot at 400 and one at 800 that the times don't need to change. You will still stand develop for 45minutes or whatever your preferred recipe was. That's what I read on the Internet so chances of that being wrong are certainly non-zero

    But if that was the case, that's why it had me confused. Conventional logic would indicate to me that the negative shot at 800 speed would be under-exposed.
    You actually believe anything you read on the Internet? With that logic, you could expose a film at ISO 1 and ISO 10,000 and develop it for the same time and get the same result.

    I've got a bridge I want to sell you in Brooklyn. Trust your instincts.

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    Re: Stand development and pushing / pulling? I don't quite get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by xkaes View Post
    You actually believe anything you read on the Internet? With that logic, you could expose a film at ISO 1 and ISO 10,000 and develop it for the same time and get the same result.
    Right, something doesn't add up for sure or there has to be limit or something. I got some pretty nice results with stand development (at box speed) so there surely is a use case for it. I used HC-110 but I've read the go-to is Rodinal. In my case I expected a bit more detail in the shadows but I still got a pretty nice looking result. Not a lot of stand development recipes on Massive Dev for instance but nonetheless I've seen some glorious photos claiming to have been done with stand dev along with some nice side by side comparisons on YouTube (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=859s66KAwPA).

    I'm just not sure if or when to apply it

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    Re: Stand development and pushing / pulling? I don't quite get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by m00dawg View Post
    I'm just not sure if or when to apply it
    STOP reading anything on the Internet. Get a copy of Controls in Black & White Photography by Richard Henry -- or pay the price.

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    Re: Stand development and pushing / pulling? I don't quite get it.

    Stand development is generally understood as development of film in highly dilute developers with minimal or extreme minimal agitation for times of between 10X to 20X of what would be considered normal. Since dilute solutions are used development is usually to completion based on the dilution, not on agitation or time.

    Dilute developers with minimal agitation are able to develop most films to a fairly wide range of Plus/Minus (or expansion/contraction) with time as a development control. Another characteristic of this type of development is that films develop to a slightly higher effective film speed than with normal agitation. And with the right kind of developer stand development can result in negatives of very high acutance, and increased local contrast in the shadows and or mid-tones of the negative.

    One contemporary photographer who has made extraordinary use of stand/extreme minimal agitation is Steve Sherman. http://www.powerofprocesstips.com

    Steve is one of the great contemporary masters of optical printing of silver gelatin with film negatives, and stand/extreme minimal agitation is one of the tools he uses in the exposure/development process.

    Sandy
    http://www.sandykingphotography.com/
    For discussion and information about carbon transfer please visit the carbon group at Yahoo.
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    Re: Stand development and pushing / pulling? I don't quite get it.

    Thanks folks! Good sources to look at! Not sure if he talks about stand dev but I'm also working through the Ansel Adams Triforce (though I'm still about 3/4th of the way through the camera). Added Controls In B&W to my reading list. I see, at least on Amazon, it's out of print but seems to be easily found.

    Sherman produces lovely results too! Interesting stand development is used here. Effective higher film speed makes sense with stand. Still seems a bit of a mystery you can push/pull without changing the development times. The developer seemingly would just exhaust itself in any case? But pushing requires more development time so I would think that would otherwise underexpose the negative?

    Guess I need to pick up that book

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