Alternate History of Photography: how early could it have been invented?

[Nodda Duma]

Another key point is that, prior to the 19th century, the scientific method and the interchange of scientific knowledge had not developed to the point where the successful development of photography could have taken place. I believe that mode of thinking was just as important as isolation of the required chemicals.

[Ray Heath]

Alternate history? Please no, this is not about the eternal debate but what if photography had never been invented? Instead we had contemporary digital picture-making starting from its beginnings in the 1980s and evolving to its present perfection. Would anybody now be motivated to invent a way of making pictures out of light-sensitive materials? What unfulfilled need could conceivably drive such research?

An interesting question Maris. But I'd turn that around and ask, if we never had chemical based photography would anyone have ever gotten the idea to make images digitally, or at all?

[LabRat]

An interesting question Maris. But I'd turn that around and ask, if we never had chemical based photography would anyone have ever gotten the idea to make images digitally, or at all?

One thing for sure, painters would still be doing a brisk business...

Steve K

[Drew Bedo]

One of the things that comes into play inthese types of speculation is knowing that a thing CAN be done. In the case of the Daguerreotype, a person with full knowledge of the process might possibly have been able to assemble the materials some twenty or more years before 1839 based on the first isolation of iodine. To stretch it further: The isolation of Iodine came through treating seaweed with sulphuric acid, then known as "oil of vitriol" . . .which was a known substance in the Renascence or a little earlier.

So if we daydream a McGyver type time traveler into the mid 1400s, and if he survives the Black Death, maybe a Daguerreotype could have been done. Sounds like a novel in the genre of The DeVinci Code or one of the Indiana Jones movies.

For Example: Knowing that it is possible could have brought hang gliders from ancient China or helped Leonardo with his flying contraption. The Chinese did on occasion build kites large enough to fly a human observer.

[tgtaylor]

If anyone is interested in the orgins of photography I have a short history with links pieced together on my website: http://spiritsofsilver.com/galleries/a_little_history Photography has a rich history and a study of it and becoming familiar with the various processes discovered along the way is an immensely satisfying experience for the truly interested.

Thomas

[barnacle]

Somewhere, I'm *sure* I've read of an ancient Egyptian chunk of bitumen which was shadowed by a leaf(?) and then in later years the slightly different solubility of the exposed and unexposed parts revealed an image.

Knowing something is possible is perhaps the first movement in deciding to research and develop it. People two thousand years ago were no less intelligent than we, but lacked the scientific method - and perhaps also the resources in time and money.

Neil

[Alan Gales]

I wonder if the Aliens who visited the Aztecs brought cameras. Of course we would have no record of this since any photographs left here would have disintegrated by now.

[Johnny LaRue]

I wonder if the Aliens who visited the Aztecs brought cameras. Of course we would have no record of this since any photographs left here would have disintegrated by now.

Of course they brought cameras, but they took all their film back to their home world.
After all, the Aztecs didn't yet know how to process film.

[Harold_4074]

I know that I have seen pinhole images made on photographic paper using a simple box camera mounted to a building or pole, and exposing for months.

Silver nitrate has been known since the 13th century (per Wikipedia) and silver chloride is light sensitive (more so in the presence of gelatine). But gelatine is an intermediate in the manufacture of hide glue, and hide glue almost certainly does (or did) contain some sodium chloride. Since glue is ancient, and a useful sizing material for paper, it should have been possible to make an actual photograph (above and beyond a simple photogram) as early as the 13th century (if you believe everything that you see on the 'Net).

As for permanence, I understand that sodium chloride has some effect as a fixer for silver halide images, and gold toning (as for printing-paper) more or less supplants fixing as we understand the term. Aqua regia, and thus gold chloride, dates from the 14th century (Wikipedia, again...) so in principle a toned "sun print" from that era could have survived until today.

I'm going to have to try this!

[Drew Bedo]

Harold: Please do give it a try.

As for "Space Aleans and Aztecs . . .They wouldn't have taken their film home . . .it would have been all digital imaging anyway.