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Thread: How many water changes to wash film?

  1. #21
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    Re: How many water changes to wash film?

    I can not keep close track. I'll do five 8x10s in a Jobo 3005, do two or three changes of water in the drum, then each neg goes into its own 8x10 tray. I fill and dump the trays a few times while I have a snack and get the next drum ready and start processing the next 5 negs. By the time the second set is done, I figure the first 5 are more than washed enough.
    "Landscapes exist in the material world yet soar in the realms of the spirit..." Tsung Ping, 5th Century China

  2. #22

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    Re: How many water changes to wash film?

    In the 1970s I was a student at the Rochester Institute of Technology. In my Materials & Process class was taught the following by Tom Hill and Hollis Todd. Per memory (highly questionable after all these years), if there are any traces of hypo in the negative it will be in the form of sulphur and sooner or later it will attack the silver image forming a light brown silver sulphide... I stand to be corrected.

    Archival process for film when I was at RIT:
    First wash in running water for 30 minutes.
    Hypo-eliminator for 6 minutes
    Final wash for 10 minutes
    All solutions around 70 degrees
    Running water can be as low as one total volume water change per minute

    Since the 1980s? I have been using PERMA WASH as my hypo eliminator. PERMA WASH recommends a 1 minute wash, 1 minute in a PERMA WASH solution, and finally a 1 minute final wash.

    I split the difference:
    1 minute first wash
    PERMA WASH (hypo eliminator) for 2-3 minutes
    Final wash 5 minutes

    Still have some of my 8x10 Super-XX negatives washed this way from the 1970s. I have seen no staining or deterioration in any of them. Last year reprinted a few of them and they amazingly showed no signs of aging.

  3. #23

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    Re: How many water changes to wash film?

    My experience: it depends on the film. Ilford FP4 will do fine with some 4 or 5 fill/agitate/dump cycles over 10-15 minutes. Kodak Tmax needs more: I take at least 30 minutes and some 8 refills.

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    Re: How many water changes to wash film?

    when people say some films take longer, how do you determine that? what cues tell you it is not fully washed?
    ~nicholas
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    stawastawa at gmail

  5. #25

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    Re: How many water changes to wash film?

    Kodak TMax film has a dye that is stubborn to remove, it will leave a pink stain in the emulsion. I think it does not matter if it stays in there but I try to get as much of it out as possible. It was put in the film to block a certain amount of uv light, so the film sensibility is closer to what your eye sees. Tmax 100 is the hardest to clear for me.

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    Re: How many water changes to wash film?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Clark View Post
    Kodak TMax film has a dye that is stubborn to remove, it will leave a pink stain in the emulsion. I think it does not matter if it stays in there but I try to get as much of it out as possible. It was put in the film to block a certain amount of uv light, so the film sensibility is closer to what your eye sees. Tmax 100 is the hardest to clear for me.
    ahh I see, so probably not a permanence thing. I imagine it might have some slight effect on contrast, and possibly on alternative processes. they key would be consistency!

    have you noticed any differenc ein wash times depending on what developer is used? wondering if some developers are better at removing it.
    ~nicholas
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  7. #27

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    Re: How many water changes to wash film?

    I do not think it will interfere with permanence and really do not know about the contrast, but it seems every body wants to clear it out.

  8. #28

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    Re: How many water changes to wash film?

    And remember that hypo based fixers take longer to wash out (esp. with colder wash water), than Rapid (ammonium thiosulfate) fixers, and if the fixers are hardening or not...

    A half hour with several changes of water should do it, and one can test the materials for it's wash (and complexes)... But because film bases don't trap thiosulfate complexes like paper bases, it washes out the complexes well... Getting the dyes out will take as long as it will take, but a pre-soak before development helps a lot to remove much of the dye beforehand... And using a one-shot developer also means that excess dye will not build-up in it, preventing it from being even harder to remove later...

    Steve K

  9. #29
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    Re: How many water changes to wash film?

    Quote Originally Posted by stawastawa View Post
    ahh I see, so probably not a permanence thing. I imagine it might have some slight effect on contrast, and possibly on alternative processes. they key would be consistency!

    have you noticed any differenc ein wash times depending on what developer is used? wondering if some developers are better at removing it.
    TMax100 is not recommended for alt processes when the negative is to be used directly in the exposure with UV light. TMax100 (at least in sheet film) has a permanent UV blocking layer (not related to the pink color) which will greatly increase your exposure time -- 4x or more. I have been staying away from TMax100 in 120 rolls because of it, but I have not tested it. I enjoy making platinum prints directly from 6cmx6cm negatives. Oddly enough, and thankfully, TMax400 does not have the UV blocking layer.
    "Landscapes exist in the material world yet soar in the realms of the spirit..." Tsung Ping, 5th Century China

  10. #30

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    Re: How many water changes to wash film?

    Quote Originally Posted by stawastawa View Post
    when people say some films take longer, how do you determine that? what cues tell you it is not fully washed?
    You've put your finger on the problem. There are no clues to tell if the film is adequately washed unless you test for residual hypo. Both adequate fixing and washing are necessary for permanence. Testing your process for both once and then checking occasionally is relatively painless and brings a lot of peace of mind. The Kodak ST-1 test for residual silver and HT-2 for residual hypo are easy enough.

    In lieu of testing yourself, you can rely on test results from reliable sources, e.g., Kodak,Ilford, Adams' books and the link to the film washing tests I posted earlier.

    For those still interested, here are the guidelines from the horses' mouths:

    Ilford
    (from the tech pubs on HP5+ and FP4+):
    "5.6 WASHING
    Where film has not been hardened, wash in running water for 5–10 minutes.
    For spiral tank use, when a non-hardening fixer has been used and the washing temperature is below 77°F, the following method of washing is recommended. This method of washing is faster, uses less water and gives negatives of archival permanence.
    1. Process the film in a spiral tank.
    2. Fix it using ILFORD UNIVERSAL Rapid fixer.
    3. After fixing, fill the tank with water at the same temperature as the processing solutions, and invert it five times.
    4. Drain the water away and refill. Invert the tank ten times.
    5. Drain and refill it for the third time; invert the tank twenty times. Drain the water.
    When a hardening fixer has been used, wash the film in running water for 15–20 minutes at a temperature within ±10°F of the processing temperature. Use of a hardening fixer makes the film more difficult to wash and is therefore not recommended.
    A final rinse of water to which ILFOTOL Wetting Agent (1+200) has been added will aid rapid and uniform drying."

    Note that Ilford's recommendations don't include a fill-and-dump method for film fixed in hardening fixer, nor do they include a hypo-clearing step.

    Kodak (from the tech pubs, How to Process and Print Black-and-White Film • AJ-3 and Processing KODAK PROFESSIONAL Black-And-White Films • ED-BWF)
    "Rinse 30 seconds Rinse the film in the tank under running water.
    Hypo Clearing Agent 1 to 2 minutes Agitate continuously for the first 30 seconds and then at 30-second
    intervals.
    Water Wash 5 minutes after Hypo Clearing Agent OR 20 to 30 minutes without
    Hypo Clearing Agent step. Remove the top from the tank. Run the wash water at least fast enough to provide a complete change of water in the tank in 5 minutes. For rapid washing in a small tank, fill the tank to overflowing with fresh water and then dump it all out. Repeat this cycle 10 times.
    Wetting Agent 30 seconds Provide gentle agitation for 5 seconds of the total time. To reduce drying scum, mix KODAK PHOTO-FLO Solution with distilled water in areas that have hard water."

    Note: we have to assume that Kodak's fill-and-dump regime is predicated on the use of a hypo-clearing step beforehand. Also, Kodak recommends their hardening fixers (Rapid Fix and Kodak Fixer) so the times are based on those.

    There are other combinations of time, temp, running water or fill-and-dump, hypo-clear or not, etc., etc. that may work, but all of them will have one thing in common: enough changes of water and enough time to leach out the residual fixer and soluble compounds. The fixer used has a large influence on wash time as well. Going moderately longer than the recommendations above will not do any damage whatsoever; wash for shorter than this at your own risk.


    Hope this helps,

    Doremus

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