4x5 field choice Ebony or Shen Hao?

[Donald Hutton]

Dean

If anyone has missed the boat with objectivity, it is yourself. Paul is relating a real experience where he and others had the opportunity to compare both cameras - you are not - you sound like you are just trying to publicy justify your purchasing decision. Everyone here has different criteria for choosing a particular piece of equipment. Evryone knows that a particular camera will not make better photographs than another. But, specs are not the only criteria when doing an objective comparison (i.e. it's like comparing a Chevy Malibu to a luxury German saloon where the only things in common are horsepower and 4 wheels - they will both get you to the office at the same time: but some of us enjoy the "driving" too). I didn't chip in on this thread because I have never used a Shen Hao; although I have used and owned many other 4X5 cameras (including the RW45 which is up for discussion). The fact that original question mentioned both as potential choices means infers that the $1500 for the Ebony is not beyond the budgetary consideration (which is often the key criteria when purchasing a camera for amateurs).

Paul seems to be the only contributor here who has direct experience with both cameras. There's no "blinding by the light" - I suspect that there is a lot more "blinded by my own criteria and cannot imagine why anyone would spend more on a camera than I did".

My Deardorff 8X10 is 40 years old - it doesn't look new, but it functions little differently to how it must have 40 years ago. I wonder how many 40 year old Shen Haos will be making the rounds 40 years hence? My Ebony is 3 years old and functions and looks like new - despite frequent use and trips to four continents. I'm not suggesting that it represents the best value for money in a 4X5 (we all know that $100 Crown Graphics on Ebay probably win that) - but it is a very well designed and executed camera.

[R Mann]

Wow, this is generating more feedback than I expected on the merits of these two cameras.

Paul, I really appreciate the description of the workshop users who were using both of these cameras. It was interesting the way you describe a group who were impressed at first and then found that their first reaction to the Shen Hao had to be tempered after exposure to both cameras. While, I can understand some passion about what choice/purchase someone has made - I was really interested on how these compared from the viewpoint of someone who has used both of these brands, or at least seen them both.

To me it does seem to be a question of the quality of Ebony's products and probably a one time purchase vs the cost of the Shen Hao - and the decision to either upgrade at a later date or deal with some defects/repair issues.

Again, my thanks to all who have shared information.

[Nick_3536]

http://largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/497755.html

And in that thread Paul mentions his Ebony

"A few years ago I found my SW45 to be sloppy"

Which echoes the comments of several other users in the thread. They then go to discuss having to adjust the screws.

I wonder if he had offered his sloppy Ebony to the people at the work shop what the choice would have been?

If you're going to say it's not fair to pick Paul's sloppy Ebony to represent every product produced by the Ebony factory then I'll assume you'll extend the same to the Shen Hao Paul couldn't keep working for a weekend.

[paul owen]

Nick I think you're missing the point! ALL Ebony cameras are constructed so that the user can adjust the rails as humidity varies - try finding other cameras that allow the user to make adjustments! They are designed so that sloppiness through humidity can be adjusted. I throw down the gauntlet and extend this challenge to anyone (that is as long as he/she is in complete control of their faculties!! )The challenge is this ... set up a Shen Hao HZX45 alongside an equivalent specified Ebony - which would be the SV45TE and tell me which is the better camera! In fact put the entry level RW45E alongside the Shen Hao and do the same. Set the cameras up, focus, apply movements, break the camera down, etc etc and YOU tell us the result! In reply to Dean's comments - have you ever seen an Ebony? Probably not from your comments! In fact, have you ever seen/handled a Shen Hao - probably not! For those who have seen/handled/owned an Ebony will concur that even the baseplate oozes quality! This comment was made by a participant - not me, although I agree totally with him! This whole debate about Shen Hao being an equal to an Ebony or any camera for that matter is complete rubbish! It is generated by people who are envious of those of us who have made sacrifices (like not smoking/drinking etc) and bought the very best wooden camera available!! By the very fact that they cost £500 it is obvious that they are not built to the same standard - and don't give me the standard reply that "its because Chinese labour is cheaper" - the simple, truth is this ... Shen Hao cameras are NOT well made - they are simply "cheap" to buy! The old saying "you get what you pay for" could have been designed for the Shen Hao! Another point, I also recommended to participants that if money was paramount then get a Shen Hao - they are good value for the money ... but as good as an Ebony? Get real!

[Dean Tomasula]

Paul, I think you need to change your reading glasses. And take an economics class.

I never said the Shen-Hao is equal to the Ebony. All I said was that it is a capable camera that should not be dismissed out of hand by people like you who are Ebony snobs. You just proved it by your BS comment that "Shen-Hao cameras are not made well - they are simply cheap to buy." That makes me wonder if you have ever really used one, or are you guilty of what you accuse me of.

The reason they are cheap is, as you so dismissively say, "Chinese labor is cheap." This is a "scientific fact" as you love to point out. They are not just cheap. Are teak wood and titanium cheap materials? Is ebony wood so much better that teak. And what kind of metal does Ebony use platimum? Gold? What makes their raw materials better than Shen-Hao's?

Yes I own and currently use a Shen-Hao HZX45-IIA. If you would ever "lower" yourself to check out the Shen-Hao Users Group forum you would know that. And yes I have used an Ebony.

I am not putting down the Ebony. They are great cameras. Well made, quality instruments. But I do think they are overpriced. I also know that Shen-Hoas are well made as well. They may not be as fine-tuned as the Ebony is, but thay are no less capable. They certainly are not in the same class as the Ebony in terms of price. But I do think they can perform capably alonside the Ebony and hold their own. Maybe they won't last as long as the Ebony will.

But as I've said before, place a photo taken with an Ebony alongside one taken by a Shen-Hao and see if you can identify which photo came from which camera. Normal people can't. Though I suspect you think that you can.

[Nick_3536]

Paul my 50+ year old Ansco doesn't need to be user adjusted. It's well made. User adjustable is a nice term. What it really means is the camera isn't designed very well. Sorry but wood moves. Everybody who has ever worked wood knows that. If you can't build something that doesn't need user adjustment then you should stop using wood. Worse we're talking cameras that tend to get babied. Nobody is going to stick an Ebony next to a big wood stove and let it dry out. Why is that the only part of my Shen Hao that needs adjustment are the screws for the sliders on the graflok back?

Paul at 500 GB pounds the comparable Shen Hao is the 5x7. If you want to compare apples to apples then compare the ones with the same price point. So take the Shen hao 5x7 and compare it to the 500 GB pound Ebony. Comparing the 4x5 which costs all of $600 or 300 GB pounds doesn't make any sense to me.

If you look at the 5x7 you won't have to settle for the floppy Ebony. You won't have to settle for the poor design choices. Metal spacers next to wood? Is this Ebony's idea of planned failure? What kind of warranty does Ebony provide? Sooner or later those metal spacers will damage the wood. That has to be intentional on thier part. Shen Hao was nice enough to use plastic. I'd rather replace a spacer then a whole camera body.

[paul owen]

Dean you seem happy to take this to a personal level so fine! In my opinion Shen Hao cameras are CRAP! Simple! Sure they have their followers but so does Holga/Lomo and they are crap too! As far as lowering myself to checking out the Shen Hao users group I have done but your name doesn't stick in my mind - should it? In fact, if YOU look into recent user reviews on THIS site you will be able to read the recent "glowing" report I wrote on the Shen Hao/Art Panorama6x17 roll film back! So as far as being a snob is concerned ... here is proof that you are wrong in this respect. My snobby Ebony quite happily carries a Shen Hao film back!! You claim to have used both an Ebony and a Shen Hao. Simple question ... can you HONESTLY say, hand on heart that they are anywhere near the same league - that's my question! NOT which takes better pictures etc etc but a simple answer to my question! In your posting you also claim that I reckon that "everything else is trash" - when have I said that? Get your facts right, stop living in your "Shen Hao" dream world - Shen Hao make cheap, poor quality cameras. An intensive workshop is probably the best way of checking out a camera too! These were "ordinary" people, some of whom had never handled a LF camera let alone heard of Ebony/Toyo/Shen Hao - they simply went on THEIR findings over the weekend - is this so hard to accept? It's not a scientific experiment - just reality!How many of us are fortunate enough to have a range of cameras to try in "real life" situations - you know, going out and taking pictures! Before deciding which is better? These participants did and they reckoned the Shen Hao was cheap and cheerful but nowhere near the quality of the Ebony - proof! I was there! I have used theses cameras to take pictures - do you? Don't kid yourself that you are using a "working class" camera and so are in some peverse way superior to the rest of us! You have chosen to use a Shen Hao - that's your mistake.

[paul owen]

Nick - get a life! How do you know how people "treat" their Ebony cameras? Simple you don't - you assume! Mine has been out in all conditions and weathers! FACT! What point are you trying to make with the 5x7? Makes no sense to me! I said to compare the Shen Hao with a similar specified Ebony or for that matter the entry level/cheapest Ebony the RW45E! Have YOU seen/handled an Ebony - clearly not! There is no metal washer-to-wood contact ! GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT! As far as a warranty - there isn't one! The simple fact of the matter is that Ebony cameras are created by craftsmen who take a pride in their work - if there's a problem then Ebony will fix it!

[Donald Hutton]

Dean

Everything I have read states that the Shen Hao HZX4X5-II utilizes stainless steel - not titanium as you have asserted twice in this tired thread - is everything I have read incorrect or are you just overstating the truth?

[Dean Tomasula]

Paul, you obviously haven't read the Shen-Hao Users Group Forums very closely. If you have you would have noticed that I am the administrator of the forums. So, yes, my name should have stuck in your mind.

I'm glad to see you use the Shen-Hao panorama back on your Ebony. You obviously realize that it's a quality piece of equipment. I just wish you weren't blinded to the fact that the Shen-Hao cameras are capable as well.

Paul, isn't the whole point of photography the pictures? The "quality" of the equipment used is irrelevant.

I don't pretend I'm a working class photographer. In fact, the only one pretending is you. Pretending you know what you're talking about when it comes to the Shen-Hao.

Not that I need to justify my camera purchases to you are anyone else, but I use a Shen-Hao because I like the camera and I can easily afford it. I also use a Speed Graphic and a Cambo. I suppose those are crap too? Afterall, they're not of the same quality as the Ebony.