If this is your first LF field camera, then the Shen Hao or Tachihara is a wise choice. When you feel comfortable with the large format process, then you may want to appreciate the finer craftsmanship and operation of the Ebony.
Most people who drive BMW's probably once drove a Toyota or Honda. They all get you to the same locations. The Ebony is a similar class act. You need to appreciate it. It has finer subleties. The ultimate LF machine (probably among others in the same category).
I would like to thank everyone who have responded - I really appreciate the first hand experiences you have related about either of these cameras. I have not made a final decision as to which one I will go with, but I do seem to be leaning towards the Ebony because of weight, bellows and comments about "quality" of finish. Although the Shen Hao users do seem to be making a strong case that it would be a wise choice also.
If you are buying a camera on a weight issue of 2 lbs I personaly think you are making a mistake. What difference is that going to make unless maybe you are hiking for several days away from civilization, 2 (16oz) bottles of water? If you look at the total weight of of a packing trip the camera weight is negligaible. A matter of fact there is a post some where on here of the break down of a common pack and the small difference camera weight actualy plays. If i find it I will show you the link to it. Or if anybody else remembers the thread maybe they could show my argument also.
Good luck,
Dan
Prepare for battle! Shen Hao or Ebony ... hmmmm ... Ebony? I've just spent the weekend on the UK LF Workshop where participants were able to compare Ebony and Shen Hao cameras "in the field". First evening we had a hands on "demo" where cameras from Ebony, Toyo and Shen Hao were available to be handled by everyone - unanimous verdict, the winner - Shen Hao! Well, it had to be - only £500 UK pounds - a real bargain? There were quite a few "interested" parties and potential purchasers too!! They all agreed the Ebony was better made - but questioned the price - doesn't everyone! Then 2 days of field trips and the "novelty" of the Shen Hao started to wear off. By the end of today the verdict was reversed! Shen Hao - rubbish! Best of the bunch - Ebony! (although there were still grumbles about the price!) Reasons given by testers - poor build quality, plastic washers on locking surfaces, sloppy play developing on most controls over the 2 days of use, no confidence in the camera surviving "12 months" of normal use, paint flaking off metal components and knobs - all this after 2 days! And a total of no more than 8 hours use!! So the question posed was this - Is the Shen Hao a bargain or simply false economy? The verdict of the majority - false economy! I appreciate that Shen Hao have their "fans" but in all reality - you CANNOT compare them to an Ebony camera. By all means if you have to have a Shen Hao then get one, but be prepared to write it off as a loss within 12 months and get something else - even if its not an Ebony! Another interesting point was that several non-LF users who had come along to get a feel for LF all agreed that they would happily spend more on an Ebony (after having the chance of actually using one in the field) as their first camera.
Paul I am not going to do battle with the shen-Hao vs ebony. By all means anyone should get what they want, not what someone else on the internet is telling them to buy. But, come on Paul;1st point how many used shen-hao's do you see on the market! Lets be fair about the brain washing that can go on at a workshop also Paul. These people are there with open minds and willing to believe anything they are lead to believe. I'll shut up know,but i find this by no means some scientific type of study as you protray it to be. It was a work shop!I appreciate that Shen Hao have their "fans" but in all reality - you CANNOT compare them to an Ebony camera. By all means if you have to have a Shen Hao then get one, but be prepared to write it off as a loss within 12 months and get something else - even if its not an Ebony!
Best wishes,
Dan
Paul I am not going to do battle with the shen-Hao vs ebony. By all means anyone should get what they want, not what someone else on the internet is telling them to buy. But, come on Paul;Quote1st point how many used shen-hao's do you see on the market! Lets be fair about the brain washing that can go on at a workshop also Paul. These people are there with open minds and willing to believe anything they are lead to believe. I'll shut up know,but i find this by no means some scientific type of study as you protray it to be. It was a work shop!I appreciate that Shen Hao have their "fans" but in all reality - you CANNOT compare them to an Ebony camera. By all means if you have to have a Shen Hao then get one, but be prepared to write it off as a loss within 12 months and get something else - even if its not an Ebony!
Best wishes,
Dan
Sorry for the double post everyone, I wish i could delete one!
Paul-
The Shen-Hao you (and apparently everyone else) used at your conference is NOT REPRESENTATIVE of how a Shen-Hao will perform under normal conditions. That model you were using has probably been beaten up by a number of conference participants over the past few years.
For the individual user who buys a Shen-Hao and even gives it hard use, you will not see any of the problems you mentioned from the conference camera. You can use the Shen-Hao for days on end without a problem. Sure the materials are not made of "gold" like the parts of an Ebony. But they are durable. The plastic washers do their job well. The pieces fit together nicely and stay where they are supposed to stay.
You can beat up a Shen-Hao and beat us an Ebony equally, and they will both have the problems you described. The Ebony is not immune from problems.
Take reasonable care of a Shen-Hao (as you would any camera you own) and it will serve you well for years.
I knew I'd ruffle a few feathers! But, in reply to some of those (Dan) defending the Shen Hao - the Shen Hao used at the workshop was new - in fact all the cameras were new and unmarked at the start of the weekend! Two days later they were all returned (to me) in the same condition - apart from the Shen Hao!. I am not suggesting that Ebony cameras are immune from problems (what is?) - but the Shen Hao did NOT inspire confidence in any of the participants after they had chance to actually use it! Its all very well slating cameras that you've never seen let alone handled, but people were actually able to put film through the cameras, carry them around to locations, set them up and break them down - scientific maybe not, but a good test of real life use? They were also able to COMPARE them with other makes! This is an important point - if the only camera you had seen/handled/used was a Shen Hao then you would have nothing to compare it to and so in my opinion you would be happy with it? As far as brainwashing participants - you should try it with the group that took part! I began Friday evening by openly slating Shen Hao but praising both the Toyo (which I do like) and the Ebony cameras (of course) - I was shot down in flames!! I was slated for being elitist and not recognising value for money - fine by me because I have first hand experience of using and handling these cameras!! I instinctively knew that time would tell!! (Smug I know!). The problems reported by the participants were fact - not science! You do not need to be a scientist to see flaking paint, feel loose movements and see plastic components! These people simply used a range of cameras and reported their findings - sure the overwhelming positive in faour of the Shen Hao was the price, but everyone agreed that it would be false economy to invest in a Shen Hao because these people (who had used it) didn't think it would last "12 months" - their words not mine! In reply to Dean - how long have you owned/used a Shen Hao or an Ebony? How can you claim that a Shen Hao will last as long as an Ebony - do you have scientific proof? No! The only way a Shen Hao would not wear out was if the owner NEVER used it! I challenge any (sane) person to prove to us here that the build quality is any where near that of the Ebony! IT ISN'T - simple fact, whether we like it or not! It was even commented by one person that the baseplate of the Ebony was better put together than the whole of the Shen Hao! As far as using the Shen Hao for days on end without problems - that's what ALL cameras should be able to do! I sold a 4 year old Ebony that I used on a weekly basis, in all sorts of weathers for £150 less than the price of a new one - the reason - it still looked and worked lke new! Try that with a Shen Hao! Two of the workshop participants are engineers. They initially praised the Shen Hao when comparing build quality to price - they both did U-turns after using it and they pointed out many failures in the cameras build - they could not find any similar problems with the Ebony or the Toyo! APART from the absolute rubbish called the Toyo 45CF - a real mickey mouse camera and even worse than the Shen Hao!! Science? No. Real life use? YES! Many postings on these forums make me smile! People quickly comment on cameras/equipment that they have never seen let alone handled! They "hear it throufh the grapevine" - I HAVE handled/used/carried/set-up and broken down these cameras so I feel that I am able to add my comments - yes they are my own personal feelings/findings but when 16 other people, who initially slated me, end up in agreement, this proves the argument better than any scientific proof - Shen Hao are NOWHERE NEAR the build quality, stability, smoothness of use as an Ebony - (hard) fact!
Paul, I never said the Shen-Hao will last as long as the Ebony, nor that it will never wear out. What I said was that with reasonable care, it will last a long time and serve you well. This is the argument all those "blinded" by the light of the Ebony make about the Shen-Hao cameras to bolster their untenable arguments. They twist what others say to support their arguments because they can't come to grips with the fact that a $600 camera can take just as good photographs as their $3,000 camera.
Here's a scientific fact for you. Your Ebony will not last forever.
If my Shen-Hao does not last as long as your Ebony, I can go out and buy a new one, and I still wouldn't have paid as much as you did for your Ebony.
I have never compared the life of a Shen-Hao to the life of an Ebony, so I couldn't say how they fare. All I said was that the Shen-Hao is a good, useable camera.
I think it's unfair to compare cameras used at a workshop and claim that they are undergoing "real life" usage. That's far from a real life situation. Did each participant have their own Shen-Hao, or did they have to share? Was there only one Shen-Hao available? Is it possible that that one camera was a lemon and not representative of the entire company? If each participant had a Shen-Hao and at the end of the conference all 16 cameras had the same problems, then I'd say maybe the camera is not all it's cracked up to be. Do you share your Ebony with other photographers on a daily basis? Did they take reasonable care with the camera or do they treat them like rentals, not worrying about banging them into trees and such?
How many of us use our LF cameras intensively every day, or even all weekend long? Not many. Some, sure, but not a whole lot. Most of us use them a few times a month for a few hours in a day, or maybe over a weekend. The Shen-Hao is not bullet proof. Neither is the Ebony for that matter. Granted, the Ebony is a quality camera. And I hope it's fit and finish is better than the Shen-Hao because it costs three times as much. It better have a quality finish.
I'm not sure what you mean by the participant's comment about the Ebony baseplate. A single piece of metal is not "put together." And you can't compare a metal baseplate to an entire camera. Again, using these kind of ridiculous comments and opinions to bolster your argument that Ebony is the pinnacle of camera design and everyhting else is trash is not helpful or intelligent.
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