Okay, maybe I was exaggerating on that point.Originally Posted by Kirk Gittings
Okay, maybe I was exaggerating on that point.
Jim, the problem isn't over-moderation, its people who complain about rules in a forum that has little to do with this site's purpose.
I'm sorry that my comments on why I sell bothered you. They were in response to an earlier post. I suppose I could have said that when I sell photographic equipment I'm not an altruist. As an economist, I'm dispose to think that sellers in general aren't altruists but since this is a statement about how people behave I could well be mistaken.
Dan ... I thought your post was fine.
If "over-moderation" is not the right term ... maybe "over-control" is.
It seems like a few are disconcerted and suddenly "fixes" are required.
If the current set of restrictions were the first we'd seen I wouldn't be here writing. The latest is just that ... the latest ... in what seems to be an ever increasing ratcheting down ... for no good reason.
I think we have to recognize that the moderation of the for-sale forum isn't much different than it ever was, though the rules for that forum have indeed changed over the years.
Here's what used to happen: People complained with other people posted comments in the threads, and asked us to delete those comments. It was worse if the transaction resulted in problems, when they wanted to air their grievances in those threads, resulting in heated arguments and accusations leveled at the mods of either squelching it or allowing it or both, depending on whose ox was being gored. The Advisories forum was our answer to that, providing a place for people to discuss these issues (positive and negative) outside the for-sale forum. Those issues have greatly diminished as a result.
People, particularly those who had zero intention of actually buying the thing, used to challenge the seller's price. This happened routinely, and caused a great deal of complaining. One of the chief complainers is one of our most famous laissez-faire departees, near as I can remember. We prohibited such as being de facto rude quite a ffew years ago, before I was a mod, but the temptation to correct an unrealistic price remains seductive.
Then we attracted more people who saw their role on this forum primarily as a seller of stuff, and they know that bumping is how they keep an item at the top of the list. But there's only room for a few at the top of the list, so there was a core of sellers would would try to out-bump each other. This utterly crowded out those who didn't want to play that game, and just wanted to occasionally sell something to their friends on the forum. Some of the bumpers got around that by posting vacuous statements, or getting friends to. We could have a forum where the same 20 listings dominate Page One forever, with 100 people trying to be one of those 20, but we decided, popularly with more folks here than some of you might realize, to eliminate bumping. First, we did it by rule, but that didn't work. Now, we have combined that solution with the next problem's solution.
People used to get into such extended discussions about equipment in for-sale forums that the listing itself was lost in the discussion. People complained about that consistently, and I mean consistently. We've tried many formulas to control that urge, all of which were unsuccessful until the most recent one. We have to admit that whatever the motive, the argument that the intent was the good of the community is hard to prove. Clearly, some habitual commenters simply liked to opine about stuff. I've done that enough myself to know the symptoms. But whose job is it to correct some perceived flaw or inadequacy in a sales listing? We have to admit that the commenters were not infallible, and often enough that supplemental information proved to be incorrect or as misleading as what it purported to clarify. Certainly, there are many of good will who want the sales forum to be like a chat around the water cooler, but they were outnumbered, or at least out-complained, by those who really didn't want it to be that at all.
We used to get many, many complaints about those who were clearly operating a store, when our guidelines prohibited dealers. We corrected that by opening the sales forum up to small dealers, but requiring them to act more like individuals rather than dealers.
We remain open to threads like this, where a few people pillory the moderators, making the most negative possible interpretation of what they perceive, and then accuse the mods of making snarky remarks when we refute their conclusions with as much humor as we can muster. So, we are not allowed to actually participate in the forum in the way that many regular members routinely do? Or is saying it that way also snarky? Threads like these have resulted in changes in this forum over the years, often in the direction our most thoughtful members suggested. For example, there have been a couple of threads in the Lounge recently that would have been closed with many deletions in the not-too-distant past that we let ride because they remained cordial. Thank you, by the way, for keeping them cordial.
We used to have people on this forum who would lapse into manic rants and rages over sales transactions, and in some cases threaten legal action. Some of these people called moderators on the phone to berate them in person. One guy created a Craigslist ad in another city offering to sell one of my valuable musical instruments for pennies, with my home phone number shown. Please do not believe that the moderators only dish it out. In fact, the moderators try very hard to be as open as possible, and this thread is evidence of that. Few or none of these concerned what the mods did, but what they perceived the mods allowed others to do.
I participate in many forums, and have moderated a few. This forum by far allows people to air their grievances concerning moderation, and by far writes and applies its rules the most consistently. In most forums, the mods just delete without explanation to the deletees. We heard you when you complained that deletions were not well enough explained, and we have worked on that. The sorts of behaviors above would result in banning-without-recourse on many forums. In fact, on all the forums in which I participate. We try hard to explain the reasoning behind our moderation, but those who disagree with something we've done don't always accept those explanations in the good faith we intend. In other forums, that problem is avoided: There are rarely if ever any explanations. Some seem to equate having no rules with being democratic, and in the classical definition of the term (i.e., mob rule), perhaps that is true. But the most successful forum in which I participate is at best described as a benevolent dictatorship, which ranges between flame wars filled with ad hominem attacks to people suddenly having the word "banned" appear under their name, with no evidence of the reason why, and with any questioning of it certain to have the same result. One forum that operates this way is certainly the largest forum in the world on its particular topic, and larger than us by orders of magnitude.
I have a pretty thick skin and usually can ignore insults, and usually I assume they are intended in good humor even when few others would. But occasionally someone gets past my defenses and they get the response they so clearly wanted to get, and then use it against me, accusing me of being adversarial with the members. Before I was a mod, I was quite a bit more adversarial than I am now, yet nobody seemed to mind, and it didn't prevent them from saying what a worthy fellow I was when I agreed to become a mod.
We have to recognize that people are people, with good and bad qualities, some of which are two sides of the same coin. We can take the bad with the good, and believe me, the mods do that more than some of you might realize. Every person who is a moderator was a long-time and respected member here, but becoming a moderator makes us less able to participate. When I became a moderator, one person who I respect deeply suggested that it was a good thing, because maybe as a mod I would post less often. Oooookaaaaay.
By the way, when I became a moderator, one of the old hands on the moderating staff at the time was pretty adamant that the only proper thing to do with the for-sale forum was to get rid of it. None of the current mods hold that view.
Rick "who seems to have a better memory than some about 'the good old days'" Denney
I hope not Leigh and Fishbulb....
thank you for sharing more words on this Rick, Always nice to see more of the picture and context.
I'm hopeful for more good discussions across the forum in the future, and to settling into the way things are now.
Rick,
Thanks for providing an insight into the reasoning. Unfortunately, I am still of the opinion that the changes are a tad too restrictive and don't turn this part of the otherwise great forum to the better. vBulletin allows for blocking a thread for a certain amount of time before the original poster is allowed to reply (read: bump the thread). For example the German dslr-forum.de is making good use of this. There is no discussion in a thread (as only the TO is able to respond) and bumping is limited to once per week.
The big advantage for the seller is to adjust the price to the demand (or reality) if necessary and to resurface the offer at the same time. Now, you just re-issue the same offer as a new one, "delete" the old one, which is a waste of time and lacks transparency (history) for a potential buyer.
If you visit the dslr-forum.de you may also take a look at how they handle (declare) "sold" items. This could be another area for improvement.
BR
I just sold a bunch of 810 film holders on apug. Didn't even consider listing them here. The radiation is working, the tumor of FS is shrinking.
Since that time (2016) I think I've only sold 2-3 lenses here. Each of those times has been a frustration due to "rule meisters" that block, delete, and admonish you every step of the way. I posted an exotic back in January, following all the rules. Today, 2.5 months later I wanted to "bump" it with "now accepting offers". Guess what? 2.3 minutes later the admin deleted the post saying "broke FS rule". I swear, if he's got so much time to memorize and enforce every infraction (have you ever READ all 6 pages of the for sale rules? Building the next manned launch vehicle is easier), you'd think he could elaborate on WHAT, EXACTLY I did wrong.And for the Moderator that says "controlling bumping was sooooo harrrrrddddd.....it took all my tiiiiimmmeee...." Um, what is a moderator supposed to do? Sit on high dispensing their wisdom in occasional witty, patronizing posts? Or to quietly moderate behind the scenes? I moderate the Collodion.com forum, and you'd barely know it. And I don't post long lectures about how hard my job is to "school" members.
And it may be just me, but it seems there is MORE work for the moderators now, than before. A quick check of the For Sale a min ago:
Tell you what, and I say again: my idea is to let democracy rein. Give moderation abilities to the forum senior members, all of them. At least for the For Sale section. Let US decide what is excessive bumping. Rather than you volunteering for moderation, then threatening to shut down the For Sale section any time anyone complains. Who gave you that decision authority? Or give ME the moderation of the For Sale forum, and I'll do it, if you put it back how it was.
I don't know about the remaining members, but when I check in here it appears there are 4-5 active posters....compared to a vibrant, energetic forum of 5 years ago.
Garrett
flickr galleries
I'm trying to offer some things for sale for those few LF photographers out there. Maybe we can have a short version of just the facts, rather than the "white paper" version of hundreds of words? Shoot, I can't even FIND the rules again, every time I look. Um....you'd think you could put it at the top of the FS section as sticky, like all other forums do?
It's so difficult here to try to read pages of rules and figure out:
- Can I bump my for sale post, ever? I thought the rule was every 30 days, but that's going by memory.
- What is the amount I can lower my price by? I know there is some rule of it must be xxx%, but again....where is that rule written?
- Is uploading a new picture of the item, a week later, after getting PM'd questions, against the rules?
- Do you REALLy want things sold here, or is this remnant of the site just for a few admins that just like enforcing rules?
Garrett
flickr galleries
Price changes may be made through an additional post, but no more often than every 7 days. This is a per-thread rule, not a per-item rule. For example, if you post a thread with 7 items, you may not post a price change for item #1 on one day, a price change for item #2 on the next day, item #3 on the third day, etc. You must include any desired price changes within a single update post, made no more frequently than every 7 days. Price changes must be a minimum of 10% or $10, whichever is greater.
When ALL items in a listing have sold or have been withdrawn, a post saying so may be added immediately prior to closing the thread.
NO OTHER BUMPS ARE ALLOWED.
Please enter descriptive text and pictures within 30 minutes of starting the thread, using as many posts as needed for the amount of text and number of pictures in your description. After 30 minutes, any updates other than price adjustments or closure of the thread must be made via edits to the initial posts. This includes, but is not limited to, the following types of change:
- Changes in item description.
- Changes in attached photographs.
- Addition of "or best offer".
- Changes in payment or shipping terms.
- "Payment pending" notices.
- Notices that some of the items in a listing have sold or have been withdrawn.
If edits are made to correct errors in identification of the item(s) being sold, the moderators can assist with any corresponding changes required to the thread title.
A member may start no more than three FS/FT threads per day.
If an item has not sold in 30 days, the seller may close that thread and post the FS listing again. It is recommended that the seller include the results of any discussion about the original thread to avoid repeating them in the new thread.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This isn't rocket science. And these rules have been in effect for four years. So if you're serious about selling then yes, you absolutely should know the rules inside out by now. But if you don't, then ASK. Many members have done that, and we're happy to help. But this "I can't be bothered so I'm just going to post whatever I want and if I get called on it I'm going to throw another public tantrum rather than PM the moderators to find out what the problem is" schtick gets really old.
We don't "want or not want" things to be sold here. For the umpteenth time: we're not running a business, and we're not competing with anybody. Members who find the FS subforum useful are welcome to use it; those who don't are welcome to seek other sales venues that are more to their taste.
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