S&S film holders for ULF

[Robert Skeoch]

I think there's a company called S&S that makes film holders for ULF.
Does anyone know of a website or have info on the company.
Do dealers sell the holders or do they sell direct.
If you're happy or unhappy with their product you could mention that also.
-Rob Skeoch

[e]

I sell S&S filmholders through my website www.deleon-ulf.com if you are interested. Emile.

[Jim Galli]

Happy user. Try Quality Camera in Atlanta, GA

[Oren Grad]

S&S holders are the brainchild of our own Sandy King, I believe in collaboration with Sam Wang. IIRC the main dealer outlets are Quality Camera in Atlanta and the View Camera Store, but Sandy can confirm that.

I own S&S holders in three formats: 6.5x8.5, 11x14 and 7x17. In general, the construction quality is good. However, my experience in purchasing these has not been entirely trouble-free.

I bought the 6.5x8.5 holders several years ago, before Sandy formally launched the business. They're well made, and have held up well under light-to-moderate use. Although Sandy told me they were modeled after an original Eastman holder, the holders are thicker and narrower than some vintage Eastman film holders that I own, and the fit in my Eastman No. 2 camera is not quite right - the film/ground glass register is a bit off, and I have to be careful about the light seal. However, this happens sometimes with antique cameras where holder standards weren't always consistent and where the holder builder doesn't have the specific camera available for reference. I can work around the problems, and on the whole I'm pleased to have the holders.

I bought some 11x14 holders last year. They turned out to be out of compliance with the ANSI specification for holder dimensions. In particular, the locking ridge was a couple of millimeters or so beyond where it should have been, and as a result the holders don't fit my camera back, which adheres precisely to the ANSI spec. Quality Camera refused to take the holders back for a refund. Sandy offered to modify my camera back, but I declined, both because the back is within spec and because in view of its construction I judged that the proposed modification was risky. Sandy also offered to take apart the holders and sand off enough of the tape end to make them fit. I had some doubts about that approach as well, so I didn't follow up at the time. I may take him up on that offer at some point, but for the time being those holders have been sitting unused, and I've gotten started in that format with Fidelity and Tachihara holders instead.

I recently obtained some 7x17 holders. I haven't had a chance to put any film through them yet, but they do fit my cameras. Although the fit-and-finish of these isn't quite so nice as with the older holders in the other two formats, it's not bad, and I expect these should work well. I'm looking forward to trying them.

I'm very happy that Sandy's in the business; his holders are generally well-made and are one of the few options for those of us who like to play with odd formats. His pricing is quite attractive relative to the other major custom-build options, namely Brubaker and Lotus. Also, Sandy is very accessible and tries to resolve any problems that arise. Just be aware that this is a not a mass-produced product that adheres rigidly to a standard, and that in some cases some debugging may be required before everything will work right.

[robert_4927]

Quality Camera refused to take a return on the holders ? Now that sounds like good busniess practice - sell me something that doesn't work and then refuse to make good on it. Brubaker may charge a little more for his holders but Alan will stand by his work. He makes a great film holder. His work is good enough to have Ebony contract him to build their film holders. From what I understand some of the older ULF cameras like the Korona all varied in specs, making the film holders to fit the camera was common practice back then. A holder from one 12x20 Korona may not fit another 12x20 Korona. I'm sure the historians could elaborate on this better than I.

[Roger Hein]

I had some 'teething' problems (light leaks) with both the 11x14 and 7x17 holders from S&S however Sandy's support has been first rate. I would buy them again. While I agree Brubaker and Lotus holders are the cream of the crop (I've had both) they are also more expensive.

[wfwhitaker]

Quite happy with the S&S holders and using them in three formats.

[sanking]

"Quality Camera refused to take a return on the holders ? Now that sounds like good business practice - sell me something that doesn't work and then refuse to make good on it. "

I don’t know what kind of problem you had with our holders or with QCC but S&S has a policy of repairing promptly every holder we sell that has any kind of defect. If, on the other hand you bought holders for a banquet or panoramic camera and they did not fit your back that is another issues. There are no ANSI standards for ULF sizes, except 11X14 and 14X17, and there is no way that we can guarantee fit for every camera on the market. Users of ULF cameras, and I am one myself, should understand this fact and be able to ask the right question about fit before buying a holder. The world of ULF is very different from that of common formats such as 4X5, 5X7 and 8X10 and people who work in the large formats need to really understand their equipment to make good use of it. In most cases it is possible to customize either the holder or the back for a perfect fit but, with the exception of the formats that have ANSI standards we make it clear that custom fitting is the responsibility of the buyer. We can do the customizing in many cases but it is an extra expense.

Over the past several years S&S has probably made and sold more holders for ULF cameras than AWB and Lotus combined, and we have made them in a wide variety of sizes, from 4X10" to 20X24" and that includes numerous custom sizes. We have made some mistakes in design that caused problems in use but we have been constantly monitoring these problems and correcting them based on customer feedback. But about nine in ten of the complaints we get about light leaks are not caused by the holders themselves, but by improper fit of the holders in the back, most often because the rib lock on the holder does not engage the groove in the back of the camera.

[Oren Grad]

Sandy's points are well taken. I'd like to add another bit of context. Every vendor in this tiny market has occasional hiccups with their product. I have seen faulty Lotus product, and I understand second-hand that even Alan Brubaker has a bad day once in a while.

The greatest drawbacks of dealing with Lotus are the extremely high price, due to the currently unfavorable euro exchange rate, and the need to ship to Europe if repairs are required.

Alan Brubaker's work is expensive, and because he's so busy you can expect to wait months for anything.

In my experience, all three respond promptly to e-mailed questions about their products.

The key to satisfaction in ULF is to communicate in advance directly with the manufacturers to make sure they understand exactly what you need and can identify any special modifications required, and to have a lot of patience, both as you wait for the product up front and as you work through the debugging that's required occasionally even with the best of preplanning.

[sanking]

"S&S holders are the brainchild of our own Sandy King, I believe in collaboration with Sam Wang. IIRC the main dealer outlets are Quality Camera in Atlanta and the View Camera Store, but Sandy can confirm that. "

Oren,

First of all I want to thank you for your patience and apologize for any problems you may have had with our holders. And for your generous comments about the S&S holders.

About vendors, we sell primarily through Quality Camera Company in Atlanta. In fact, they are the only entity outside of ourselves authorized to advertise the S&S line of holders in promotional literature. This unique relationships exists because it was in large part the encouragement of Jeff at QCC that got Sam and me involved in marketing this line of holders. However, we also sell holders directly to customers (same price as through QCC), and fill custom order for Emile DeLeon and the View Camera Store for special purposes. For example, Emile is an authorized dealer of Wisner cameras and if a Wisner camera is made to accept S&S holders we will sell either directly to Wisner or to a dealer such as Emile. We have a similar understanding with the View Camera Store and a company in France. But to repeat, our primary outlet is QCC and we expect to continue that relationship.

With regard to the 6.5 X 8.5 holders we built these to the exact dimensions of some vintage Eastman holders from the 20s or 30s that are in my personal collection, "except" for the overall thickness which caused the T-dimension issue. In my own case (I also use 6.5 X 8.5 from time to time since it is a lovely format for still life compositions in the vertical dimension) I have compensated for the T-dimension discrepancy by placing a fresnel lens *in front of the ground glass*. Also, since the time you purchased your holders we have started to use a light trap system that is entirely different from what your holders have. I would be more than happy to retro-fit your holders with the new system if you want me to.

About the 11X14" holders, for some reason we made two batches of holders that were just within ANSI tolerances on the long side on the dimension from the end of flap to the beginning of the rib lock. Most people who have purchased these holders have not had any problem with fit, but some people who own cameras with backs that have the groove cut for holders that are slightly within, or just outside of, ANSI tolerance on the short side encounter problems . We will correct back to the middle of ANSI tolerance for the next batch of 11X14" holders, but for the time being there are two viable fixes for this: widening the groove on the camera back, or shortening the holders at the flap end. The easiest solution by far (since it only involves one operation) is to adjust the thickens of the groove on the back, and we are willing to do this at no charge. However, shortening the holders at the flap end is not particularly complicated so if a customer prefers this option we are more than happy to do it, though it does involve working on all of the holders.

In any event the offer still stands regarding your 11X14 holders. I would very much like to know that you are using the holders rather than having them stashed away somewhere in a corner.