To get out of ULF or not?

[Tin Can]

keep your stuff..in fact..buy more.. stop going to school, and instead..with that money..go and shoot...a lot

it's all about the prints.. and not the paper

The most famous and successful Chicago artist I know says exactly that. Well, the no to Art School part, he is a writer and printmaker.

Tony actively and continuously advocates for not attending Art school.

https://tonyfitzpatrick.wordpress.com/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Fitzpatrick_(artist)

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...ork-james-yood

However, Tony is proud to BE an Artist and now has work in http://www.artic.edu/ His mom is also proud. https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/2013...akes-mom-proud

[Michael E]

A decent education and the paper to prove it are becoming increasingly valueable these days. Yes, it the art field as well. That's just the way the developed countries have developed.

Stone, all (camera) things equal, how does your processing compare? I shoot a lot more 4x5" than 8x10" because I can fit 12 sheets into a single JOBO drum instead of 2. Sometimes I shoot 10 to 15 sheets on a particular day - I can easily process 4x5 the same night and go out again the next morning, 8x10 is a PIA by comparison.

[Tin Can]

You should have encouraged Stone to join the free ride. Germany has free college!

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32821678

A decent education and the paper to prove it are becoming increasingly valueable these days. Yes, it the art field as well. That's just the way the developed countries have developed.

Stone, all (camera) things equal, how does your processing compare? I shoot a lot more 4x5" than 8x10" because I can fit 12 sheets into a single JOBO drum instead of 2. Sometimes I shoot 10 to 15 sheets on a particular day - I can easily process 4x5 the same night and go out again the next morning, 8x10 is a PIA by comparison.

[Michael E]

You should have encouraged Stone to join the free ride. Germany has free college!

Yup.

[papercam]

keep your stuff..in fact..buy more.. stop going to school, and instead..with that money..go and shoot...a lot

it's all about the prints.. and not the paper

Making art might not have much to do with the paper, but teaching usually does.
Some sort of formal education (M.ed, MFA, BS/BA ) is requires no matter where someone wants to teach. Whether or not schools will allow classes in early-mid 19th Century Photography might be a different set of issues (perceived danger, toxins, liability waste haulage et al.).

[Fr. Mark]

Drawing and painting instruction might not be the best in the university setting. Look for Ani Art Academy.
http://aniartacademies.org/
These folks have a scholarship for ft apprentices, IIRC. May be too far away for your situation. But there are other similar old art type instructional venues.
Debt is very dangerous unless you are collecting it!
Back to film, film can be done with very low toxicity and cost. We could probably make that a whole thread.
I'd suggest trying to avoid liquidating camera gear if you can store it responsibly---I just developed some 5x7's I'm fairly happy with and contact printed them as cyanotypes. There's certainly the temptation to have bigger and bigger and bigger contact prints all analog. But, bigger cameras are bigger, heavier, more expensive, more expensive to feed. And, it's hard to deny that you can do more more easily with a computer and a good printer (maybe with custom drivers and ink sets) than you can in the darkroom. I keep telling myself I don't need negatives bigger than 4x5. On the other hand, if you need it you can make it in LF and ULF to a large extent. Even film holders. Once all my kids are out of college, maybe sooner, I might buy wood and metal machining tools rather than film holders and cameras for WP and 14x17 if I still want those sizes.

[Kirk Gittings]

Drawing and painting instruction might not be the best in the university setting. Look for Ani Art Academy.
http://aniartacademies.org/
These folks have a scholarship for ft apprentices, IIRC. May be too far away for your situation. But there are other similar old art type instructional venues.
Debt is very dangerous unless you are collecting it!
Back to film, film can be done with very low toxicity and cost. We could probably make that a whole thread.
I'd suggest trying to avoid liquidating camera gear if you can store it responsibly---I just developed some 5x7's I'm fairly happy with and contact printed them as cyanotypes. There's certainly the temptation to have bigger and bigger and bigger contact prints all analog. But, bigger cameras are bigger, heavier, more expensive, more expensive to feed. And, it's hard to deny that you can do more more easily with a computer and a good printer (maybe with custom drivers and ink sets) than you can in the darkroom. I keep telling myself I don't need negatives bigger than 4x5. On the other hand, if you need it you can make it in LF and ULF to a large extent. Even film holders. Once all my kids are out of college, maybe sooner, I might buy wood and metal machining tools rather than film holders and cameras for WP and 14x17 if I still want those sizes.

He plans to teach at a university where to be competitive in the job market usually requires an MFA. Everyone can come up with a name of a successful artist who doesn't have an MFA, but that is not the scenario he envisions. 40 years ago it was the same which is one of the main reasons I got an MFA. It has served me well. I haven't always needed it but when I did it was in my pocket.

"I should mention that I'm going for an MFA because I plan to teach, but specifically traditional techniques. Most of the teachers who are well versed in the old ways are retiring or frankly dying off. There's a need at some fancy fine art colleges for people who know those techniques and I plan to fill a void now that traditional photography (film, wet plate, etc) has taken a seat along side the "fine arts" like paining and sculpting etc at colleges that are focused on fine art and charge a lot to students. So the need for me will be kind of small, but at the same time the competition will not be so bad, most WP guys don't have a masters etc, at least that's my thinking."

[StoneNYC]

He plans to teach at a university where to be competitive in the job market usually requires an MFA. Everyone can come up with a name of a successful artist who doesn't have an MFA, but that is not the scenario he envisions. 40 years ago it was the same which is one of the main reasons I got an MFA. It has served me well. I haven't always needed it but when I did it was in my pocket.

"I should mention that I'm going for an MFA because I plan to teach, but specifically traditional techniques. Most of the teachers who are well versed in the old ways are retiring or frankly dying off. There's a need at some fancy fine art colleges for people who know those techniques and I plan to fill a void now that traditional photography (film, wet plate, etc) has taken a seat along side the "fine arts" like paining and sculpting etc at colleges that are focused on fine art and charge a lot to students. So the need for me will be kind of small, but at the same time the competition will not be so bad, most WP guys don't have a masters etc, at least that's my thinking."

What Kirk said.

Thanks guys for the advice, my Dad's really sick and in hospice suddenly and sooner than expected so I haven't been on much. All of this stuff has taken a back seat.

I'll mull it all over and comb through my gear to see what will and won't serve me going forward. I'm sure for some of my MFA work, I'll be able to utilize the bigger gear and the smaller gear will be available to borrow, so I'm less concerned with the smaller stuff.

I'm mostly thinking about the impact my work will have on the viewer than in the gear itself, but gear can be also have an impact on the viewers perspective, if I can utilize difficult gear in a way that's not common (shooting a hurricane image or tornado image using an ULF camera, as an extreme example) I can show both forethought and skill that will hopefully allow others to take notice (I'm not becoming a storm chaser I'm saying this as an example).

When this life stuff is all over (or the current at least) I'll be able to focus more and have more time, all my time now is spent on visiting Dad and taking care of his things.

Hope everyone here is doing well. Thanks for the advice. My Dad said to me today, when I asked him if he approved of my current lifestyle (he was introduced to both of my girlfriends the previous week) and his response was both accepting and wise "you have to follow your own path son".

I think Grandpa had the same view when he said to me "Don't ever let them tell you something can't be done just because they haven't been able to do it". Grandpa came up with the idea and patent for the "elastomer load bearing device" and essentially made Sikorsky helicopters what it is today, as well as helped some NASA space shuttle devices not shake apart during take off.

So I've been raised to think differently and go my own way, sometimes it's good, sometimes bad. I have big shoes to fill, with a little luck and a lot of dedication perhaps I'll make something to positively impact this world.

Thanks again for the advice, off to Chem class.

[Drew Wiley]

Sorry to hear about your difficulties. And it is always a very rough stretch when losing immediate family members. As far as the long term question itself, you
might be wise to hang onto any special lenses that would also be useful for somewhat smaller viewer camera formats, such as 8x10. Yes, there is a flood of affordable used lenses right now; but certain ones aren't likely to reappear often, and might command very high prices if they do. ULF cameras per se can always be made by somebody out there. It's not technically as difficult as lenses. I never had the patience to deal with school. Yeah, I got my degree, but mostly did independent study anyway. I took my aunt's advice to never formally study art or it would ruin me; and she had four phD's including art history, and taught art in major universities much of her life! But each of us has different situations, and if you expect to teach in an academic setting, you have to go through their
prescribed protocol first and become one of them. Not like the 1930's, where artistic merit alone was the priority. One step at a time.

[Fr. Mark]

Probably true that an MFA or being hugely famous is needed to teach at a University, or both. I was probably projecting my wishes for some real drawing/painting instruction onto the situation (to me traditional techniques means charcoal and maybe oil paints to me...) and I've not been enormously impressed with what passes for art instruction or art results coming from academia compared to the work coming out of the small instructional studios. If I knew I HAD to be an oil painter of the kind I usually admire/wish I could do, I'd not go to a college type art school, I'd go to one of these small private academies. But, for many reasons, that's not going to be my path in life.

Stone, sorry to hear of your dad taking a turn for the worse. Might not be the time for more big decisions.

Intro college chem classes can be the pits, taught in a method I'd call anti-evangelical or made to make people quit. I'm not looking for a big tutoring gig, but if you want some chemistry help, I might be able to answer questions. I've taught some intro classes/labs at HS and college level and did get my first master's in chemistry back in 94 and worked in the industry 1987-2004. Send me a PM if you want. Won't be offended if you don't.