Opinions about exploitation

[Ellis Vener]

I should not have said your friend is lying.

Mistaken or confused, yes but I don't know him or her so I should not have impugned their honesty.

http://www.photographers.it/articoli/foto1/capa/falling%20soldier.pdf

[Mark_3632]

So what do you folks think about these

http://homepage.mac.com/joseafoto/PhotoAlbum5.html

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Nothing wrong with these pictures Mark. There is a fundamental difference between playing with bodies, and body parts and doing photojournalism and documenting what in this case appears to be the work at a "rastro" (the place where they sacrifice cattle) and a mortuary.

Notice than other than the presence of the photographer the place while not modern is clean, the body is not handled disrespectfully and most likely the photographer has permission from the family.

This is nowhere near the crap that Witkin does......

[Kirk Gittings]

Fame and infamy are indistinguishable these days. Not all of Witkin's subjects are dead or even missing a few body parts. I have met a few of Witkin's live subjects. As he works out of the same town that I do. They are all to the person odd to say the least, but within a certain subculture being photographed by Witkin is a badge of honor. People beg him to photograph them. It is their 15 minutes of fame like they are saying "see I am world class odd-Witkin photographed me". In a sense, with his live subjects, he "elevates" them to a kind of international fame that is very appealing and otherwise inaccessable to some. Is he exploiting them or are they exploiting him?

The dead and dismembered is another question. Witkin used to "borrow" body parts from the morgue at the university hospital here. It was of course illegal and disrespectful and when it became public a few heads rolled, not Witkin's of course. He was a star graduate student at the university.

Part of his appeal to the the art crowd is the "outlaw" goulish nature of his work which is not disimilar to the appeal of John Wayne Gassey's art or other serial killer memorabilia. He has a kind of mythic stature amongst a voyueristic croud of art snobs who are fascinated by but not bothered by the ethical questions raised by his work.

Twenty years ago when I first met him, I used to think he was simply very clever at playing the art game. I now think that he is a twisted genius who lets no moral or legal quams stand in the way of his maniacle pursuit of his vision. If he were a surgeon he would probably be Joseph Mengala. Unfortunately all genius is neither benevolent nor altruistic.

[Alex Hawley]

"I now think that he is a twisted genius who lets no moral or legal quams stand in the way of his maniacle pursuit of his vision."

Sounds similar to the fictional (let's hope) Hannibal "the cannibal" Lechter.

As long as people keep enabling Witkin, he will continue his "work". There's something to be said for the old-fashioned shunning of those who fell off the moral/ethical cliff.

[paulr]

Interesting post, kirk. I wasn't aware that his subjects sought him out like that, but it makes sense.

And Alex, as far as the possibility of shunning Witkin's (or anyone's) work, you can be sure that people do.
People vote with what they buy, and with what shows they choose to visit. It attests to the range of ethical and artistic standards in our country alone that there can be so many people and groups of people who shun Witkin, and so many who support him.

Jock Sturgess is another example. The country is filled with people who think he's evil incarnate, but that hasn't stopped a huge following and group of supporters from forming worldwide--one that includes his subjects and their families.

It seems that any fears of pure moral relativism can be put to rest by noting that there are still lines in the sand--laws and public outrage put the lid on work with clear victims. You can not get an NEA grant to make a snuff film. You can go to jail for making one. You go to jail just for possessing child porn. People who think that Witkin deserves the same treatment should know that they're not alone, but also that there's a whole world of people who strongly disagree.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Witkin deserves the same treatment should know that they're not alone, but also that there's a whole world of people who strongly disagree.



You go to jail for "using" a corpse as well......

Law and breaking the law is not a matter of agreement or disagreement. I could not care less what other people who support him think, the bottom line is that in the US he broke the law and in Mexico he broke the law. The fact that he got away with it is irrelevant. Please dotn preach to me about the morality, or legality of the issue, regardless of what you see in his crap on the other issues you have no leg to stand on.

[paulr]

How could I know I was preaching to you, Jorge? You said you were outa here days ago.

At any rate, you missed my point again. I'm not preaching, nor am I giving a legal lecture.
Just showing how there are existing structures (including the law) that tend to set limits at some point ... and that within those limits there is a wide range of opinion on what should be tolerated.

At any rate, not that it's directly relevent, I'm curious to know specifically what laws he violated .. in Mexico and here.

[Wayne]

but also that there's a whole world of people who strongly disagree

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Oh Puhlease! There are " some people" who disagree and a few who disagree strongly would probably be a lot more accurate. There is no need to overstate the support for the likes of Witkin.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

And I was , but it gets tiring seeing you adamantly trying to have the last word to excuse Witkin's crap. Seems to me you are the one who keeps missing the points made by the mayority here, but then that is of no consequence. Your "show" of limits to excuse Witkin's behavior is ridiculous, and I am not going to do your homework for you, you ask a lawyer if it is illegal in the US to utilize human remains without a specific consent by the family and you will see what he/she says....why do you think hospitals cannot harvest human remains for transplant at will and without permission?...

YOur response is typical of your arguments, when you cannot justify your reasoning you immediately ignore the question and come up with rationalizations...and dumb questions like "what laws did he break?"...brother!!!

I asked a lawyer here and she game me a whole bunch of laws and statues that this idiot broke here...just because they were not enforced it does not mean he was within his rights....but then, as I said before you seem to think two wrongs make a right....