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Thread: Opinions about exploitation

  1. #111
    Abuser of God's Sunlight
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    Opinions about exploitation

    It would be nice if you'd take a few deep breaths before you write, Jorge. It can be hard to figure out if there's even anything to respond to when you rant this loudly.

    The question "what laws did he break" was neither dumb nor rhetorical. You acted like you knew something so I asked you.

    When you constantly point to my attempts to justify Witkins behavior, you're setting up a paper man to knock down. I never once defended Witkin's behavior. Unfortunately, in order to see this, you would have to read what I wrote, which doesn't seem to be your style. At any rate, I'm not sure why you're commenting on my arguments that you haven't read.

    I've actually been interested in hearing what your arguments are... when I tried to understand your position you just said I didn't get it, and you refused to elaborate.

    But one general point seems to be that you feel the esthetic judgements of a work must be dependent upon ethical judgements made on the artist or his working methods. Do you believe this? if you do, I'm very curious to hear you defend it. You may not realize this, but that is a radical position. Which isn't to say that It couldn't be defended, but I'd be very curious to hear someone do it, and to find out what such logic could be based on.

    For whatever it's worth, constantly repeating words like "crap", "ridiculous," and "idiot" doesn't actually strengthen anyone's case.

  2. #112
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    Opinions about exploitation

    "There is no need to overstate the support for the likes of Witkin"

    It just seems curious to me that most of the voices of support seem to be coming from major public art collections, university art collections, private collectors with large investments in contemporary photography, upper-end galleries and art magazines, non-profit art book publishers, mainstream magazines (including Vanity Fair, Esquire, and The New Yorker), and public libraries.

    Meanwhile, most of the objection to his work seems to be coming from church groups, neoconservative family organizations, and camera club-style internet newsgroups like this one.

    Just something to consider if it starts to seem like the whole world agrees with you.

  3. #113

    Opinions about exploitation

    On the same vein that it does not seem to be your style to read what Kirk, Alex, Peter I and others have written, it is hard to argue with someone who only wants to read what he likes and dismisses the rest, as you have done plenty of times on this thread. YOu have been told by me and many others on this thread that this is not a thread about valuing aesthetic value, but about exploitation yet you continue to dismiss this and once again ask the same question.

    SO how about you read what I and others wrote, I have no intention of going round and round with this. Specially given your views about "authenticity". What a convenient excuse you found there.

    Face it, the only reason you are still here is because you have to have the last word so in some way you feel vindicated in your beleif about Witkin's greatness.....I told you about 3 times, as far as art is concerned, Witkin's pictures are nothing but a morbid display, once you get past that there is nothing there, IMO. As far as the pictures being exploitative, they are, they used people and cadavers for personal gain, or fortune or as you seem to think, self therapy.....in whatever case there is no reedeming value here.

    I am sure you will once gain start with your...but, but, ethical behavior has nothing to do with art....we got it, the first time you said it and to continue arguing with you on the matter is an exercice in stupidity. I might need to thake a breath before I write, I will do so when you take the time to think before you do so...

  4. #114
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    Opinions about exploitation

    Well, Jorge, that last post was actually the most clear set of statelments you've made. Not entirely consistent, but at least I can answer it.

    "YOu have been told by me and many others on this thread that this is not a thread about valuing aesthetic value, but about exploitation yet you continue to dismiss this and once again ask the same question."

    I've been told this by you, yes--but notice that almost all of your posts on exploitation also bring up judgements on the value (or lack of it) in his work. As you go on to say in the same post, "Witkin's pictures are nothing but a morbid display..." and " ...in whatever case there is no reedeming value here." These are value judgements that you have been continuing to restate--so if thread drift is a crime, then we are equally guilty.

    My original point about the connection/lack thereof between esthetic and ethical judgements was in direct response to a series of posts (that you participated in) that suggested such a relationship. so again, I didn't bring up the topic on my own.

    "On the same vein that it does not seem to be your style to read what Kirk, Alex, Peter I and others have written ..."

    I'm not lumping you in with everyone else. Kirk and I don't agree on everything, but he argues intelligently, and he demonstrates that he's taken the trouble to understand what he's responding to. On the other hand, almost every time anyone has said anything like "clearly you believe that ..." and then said something I never even implied, it was you. And almost every time someone made a personal attack, it was you. So I'm not going to be lured into addressing a whole group when responding to just one.

    And this being the case, I don't want to bore anyone else by arguing about arguing. If you want to attack me some more, you can find my email. And for the record, I understand that you consider Witkin's behavior to be unethical and criminal, his work to be absolutely devoid of anything worth discussing, and that all those who see something that you don't to be profiteering or hallucinating.

    A noble position indeed.

  5. #115

    Opinions about exploitation

    I dont know that those that see something are profiteering, but they are certainly hallucinating.....as to not wanting to bore anyone else by arguing for arguing...too late bubba, but then your martyrdome is complete you have become defender of the faith and all those who have to see "deeper" into images.....

  6. #116
    Abuser of God's Sunlight
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    Opinions about exploitation

    Agreed!!

  7. #117

    Opinions about exploitation

    I am glad...!!

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